Job Discussion Forums

fred13331 · Joined: 20 Feb 2012 Posts: 108 Location: Southern China

There has been research done into this area.
"Language teaching is a science, an art, and a skill that requires complex pedagogical preparation and practice. Therefore, not all speakers may make good teachers of their first language" [Canagarajah, A.S.[1999]

That is an opinion, not research

RPMcMurphy · Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 90 Location: Australia

[quote="fred13331"]There has been research done into this area.
"Language teaching is a science, an art, and a skill that requires complex pedagogical preparation and practice. Therefore, not all speakers may make good teachers of their first language" [Canagarajah, A.S.[1999]

That is an opinion, not research[/quote]

I didn't say it was research, although when an academic gives an opinion it is invariably research based. I really can't be bothered putting together a reading list for this forum, but the following writers are a start:
Medgyes 1994, Braine 1999, Higgins 2003, McArthur 2001.
This phenomena is called The Native Speaker Fallacy, and is well researched. I can imagine that many people wouldn't want to believe it though, especially when its their jobs that are under threat.

But back to the topic. My contention is that "learning" English in China, and other expanding circle countries, is for the great majority a waste of time and resources. Once governments wake up to this [as the ROK is starting to do], they will cut back on funding and the job market will shrink. Employing two qualified NNESTs as opposed to one NEST for the same price [no research, just a guess] must make sense. Genuine qualified "foreign experts" will still find work, but salaries will have to be addressed.

fred13331 · Joined: 20 Feb 2012 Posts: 108 Location: Southern China

[quote="RPMcMurphy"]

RPMcMurphy · Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 90 Location: Australia

roadwalker · Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: Ch

I agree that Chinese NNESTs aren't sufficient to teach English to Chinese students, without a corps of NESTs to complement the faculty. Chinese English teachers are capable and often very talented, but the problem isn't that they are non-native speakers, but that they are native speakers (of Chinese). The pressure to explain in Chinese, and the relative comfort of doing so as opposed to explaining in English insures that there will be few instances of immersion or anything close without foreigners.

Non-Chinese NNESTs don't have the same problems, since explaining in Italian, French, Russian or what-have-you is not an option. From the students' perspective, the comfort level associated with a Chinese teacher is already gone. There may be some areas where all but the native speaker or genuinely bilingual teacher will be at a disadvantage. But the non-Chinese and Chinese NNESTs may find the perspective of having learned English as a foreign language useful in teaching as well.

Lobster · Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:13 am Post subject:

People who have very good language and teaching abilities and skills can teach. Those who don't, can't. It doesn't matter if they are NESTs or NNESTs.

RED

RPMcMurphy · Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 90 Location: Australia

roadwalker · Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: Ch

Nothing lasts forever, but I haven't seen any reason native English teachers won't be in demand for the foreseeable future. Wait, isn't this 2012? Aren't we running out of Mayan calendar? Jobs might be the least of our concerns, or no concern at all.

On the other hand, teaching will probably still take place in some form, if there is indeed a 2013. As far as I'm concerned, unless the sky actually falls, no need to worry.

Lobster · Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject:

fred13331 · Joined: 20 Feb 2012 Posts: 108 Location: Southern China

Guerciotti · Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject:

For what it's worth I generally agree with Roadwalker and Fred on this "English Fever" idea.

It is not English Fever, it is not a fad or passing fancy. OP, your premise fails as a matter of fact. You may want to choose another subject for your thesis. Regretfully you seem fully vested in this conclusion. Sad.

It, English, happens to be the lingua franca. China happens to include English on various exams including the Gaokao, CET-4 and CET-6. You can easily replace an iPhone but you can't easily substitute the lingua franca.

China may eliminate the 'problem' of unqualified NESTs at any time by substantially raising NESTs pay and, dare I say it, required qualifications. This will not happen. The question is academic and, in my humble opinion completely uninteresting. Seoul may discontinue various programs. China is vast.

OP apparently wants to promote the idea that positions for your average NEST shall disappear soon to motivate his master's studies in this subject area. Fine, go get your master's. I hope you enjoy the studies and reap the rewards. Meanwhile, try not to take yourself so seriously.

Thousands of amateurs, like myself a few years ago, will come to China and teach English with mixed results. If China decides this is a problem, the ball is in their court. China can make decisions to change the current paradigm, but so far they have not.

Oh, yes, please don't wear yourself out making a reading list for us mortals. The contributors on this forum appear to take their work seriously, though as expected differences do arise. I think it's safe to say we don't need your patronizing assistance in our choice of reading material.

OP may say the sky is falling, but everything is fine here, though it did rain almost all day. There's a big difference between NNESTs and NESTs, but apparently the distinctions are lost on the OP.

Ariadne · Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 960

Here, here!! Hear, hear!! Both apply.

.

RPMcMurphy · Joined: 22 Aug 2012 Posts: 90 Location: Australia

I can see I've touched raw nerves and the laager has formed. Fred said something about vested interests and biased opinions which, ironically, could now be applied to many of the posts above. Given that the average stay for an FT in China is only one year [SBFE], most of you will be long gone before the changes I anticipate occur, so good luck in your new lives, which probably won't involve teaching unless a new field opens up. This could well be Indonesia. India will pass on the need to employ the inner circle to teach them a language many millions speak already..

English Fever [Krashen's term-read his article http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/fever/01.html - but a web search brings many interesting results] peaked in China in the 2000's, coinciding with the Olympics and China's booming economy. The first has long gone, with millions of shop assistants and taxi drivers having sat through hundreds of hours of tedium unnecessarily. The second is slowing markedly. In 1997 I was the sole FT at my university. I revisited in January, and there were 15. Proof you might think that the goldrush continues? The FAO said most departing FT's weren't being replaced. A similar scenario existed when I revisited Shanghai. My old university felt it simply wasn't a worthwhile exercise. They'll keep on a few for English majors [who DO benefit from having NESTs], and for PR purposes. So people won't actually lose their jobs, but simply not be replaced. I think the Korean figures I quoted earlier [one NEST costs the same as two NNESTs] are significant. No matter how grand a job you and your students think you're doing, few number crunchers in accounting could ignore that.

There is a lot of disquiet regarding English as a compulsory part of the Gao Kao, as well as the first two years of uni/college, because its simply not needed by most, and is resented by many. If you want some stats. send your communicatively competent majors out to survey the vast majority of "hello" students, and see what they think of the Gao Kao and CET4! Maybe they have attained some basic literacy, with the remote possibility that they'll have to read or write something in English sometime in the future, but does this justify the cost, not to mention the time spent? Of course English is the Lingua Franca, but when numbers of people "learning", or who "know" English worldwide are quoted, how many of these are communicatively competent, or use the language in their daily lives?

And yes Lobster, my comment on non-white NESTs was rhetorical. China is racist. Colour is more important than quality, luckily for many but unluckily for others. In Shanghai in 2004 I was recruiting for my university. By far the best candidates were not white, or even inner circle in one case. I had to battle prejudice and rationalisation ["parents want white teachers!"] to get these teachers on board , but won and was justified by their performances. Comments that I don't know China are well wide of the mark.

And finally, a hypothetical exercise, imagine this. You are the parent of a ten year old back home, wherever that may be. Mandarin had been declared a compulsory school subject. You might agree, you might not, but you have no say. Your government decides to bring in thousands of native-speaking Chinese to teach the subject. Most speak little English, some none at all. A few are fluent. Most have a degree from China, be it in Archaeology, Physics, History. Only a few have teaching qualifications though, and not many know how to teach a language. These new people will have airfares paid, housing provided and will generally be paid more than local trained teachers.
How do you feel about your child in this situation? Is it educationally sound?

As for "screeds" [sic] of data and analysis, here's a starting point from George Braine. Although, as a non-NNS, he's probably not worth reading.

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar_url?hl=en&q=http://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9780387245669-c2.pdf&sa=X&scisig=AAGBfm0AYCBT_pfABWJlWGXB3U0IhkVJqQ&oi=scholarr&ei=nXlRUJ6gCeuTiQe_84HYAg&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQgAMoADAA

Anyway folks, thanks for a lively debate. Certainly more interesting than "Where's the best city to live" for the 500th. time.