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Is English Fever Finally Abating?
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RPMcMurphy



Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Is English Fever Finally Abating? Reply with quote

OK, last try Red. Here's what I said in my original post. I've never deviated from this.
RPMcMurphy wrote:
There's no evidence that NESTs produce graduates with a better standard of English than NNESTs


Now I'm sure you know about contrastive rhetoric, but in the Western countries I think we both grew up in, the onus is on you to disprove my thesis. Possibly our cartoon loving colleagues might disagree, but that's what they're for.
I look forward to your screeds of data.
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is English fever finally abating?

I don't think so.

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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Guerciotti



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 842
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Is English Fever Finally Abating? Reply with quote

RPMcMurphy wrote:
OK, last try Red. Here's what I said in my original post. I've never deviated from this.
RPMcMurphy wrote:
There's no evidence that NESTs produce graduates with a better standard of English than NNESTs


Now I'm sure you know about contrastive rhetoric, but in the Western countries I think we both grew up in, the onus is on you to disprove my thesis. Possibly our cartoon loving colleagues might disagree, but that's what they're for.
I look forward to your screeds of data.


I'm not RED, but please allow me my two pence.

RPMc, in this thread you made several claims. I paraphrase:
English fever has subsided.
China shall change the Gaokao and substantially reduce the number of NETs.
Many NETs are not effective English teachers.
A few more, and the above:
"There's no evidence that NESTs produce graduates with a better standard of English than NNESTs."

That is a thesis statement, not a thesis. No one in their right mind submits a thesis statement and demands evidence against it. It is only a statement.

A thesis is a premise to be maintained or proved. You grudgingly offered a few links with weak or nonexistent support. Hardly a thesis.

You seem to expect others to search the internet for dispositive data regarding your statement. Do your own homework.

Maintain or prove your thesis that we may engage in discourse to prove or disprove it. You may choose any one of the theses above or a new one! Or perhaps you should just forget it.
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Lobster



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't feel that I have to provide evidence to counter your claim, but some common sense would apply nicely. Given two instructors with the same training, experience and ability:

The NEST will have internalized, accurate first-language grammar.

The NEST will have native pronunciation and intonation.

The NEST will have a grasp of idiomatic expressions.

The NEST will have relevant culture reference points for the language.

The NEST will have a native standard of fluency.

The effort made to portay NNESTs as being equal or superior to a native speaker seems to me to be a desperate attempt by some to establish or maintain a foothold in this area of education. You have made several claims that cannot be supported, and in fact you have made no attempt to address the counter-examples provided by other posters.

Look, if I want to learn Chinese, German or Russian, I'm going to choose a native speaker as my teacher if at all possible. By the time a native speaker has reached the age of 12, they have spent so many hours aquiring the language that no amount of later-life study can hope to compensate for it.

One possible exception may be a person whose first language wasn't English, but who at a young age started living and studying in an English speaking country.

I have yet to encounter a NNEST who wasn't baffled by the expression "once in a blue moon" or who was totally free of first language interference in grammar or pronunciation.

One might argue that the NNEST has the advantage of being able to share their experiences in learning English with students and thus have a better grasp of what is required to master the language, but I would counter that any NEST who has attained a high degree of fluency in anoither language will also have this edge.

Therefore, all other factors being equal (e.g. knowledge of grammatical structures and how to explain them), I feel the NEST will always have the advantage.

RED

edited to remove typo


Last edited by Lobster on Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm baffled by that expression too. Looks curiously like "once in a blue moon", but that means something different... Surprised
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RPMcMurphy



Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lobster wrote:


1.The NEST will have internalized, accurate first-language grammar.

2.The NEST will have native pronunciation and intonation.

3.The NEST will have a grasp of idiomatic expressions.

4.The NEST will have relevant culture reference points for the language.

5.The NEST will have a native standard of fluency.

RED


I numbered the above for ease of reference.
1. Hopefully. But can they explain grammar clearly and correctly to students? Rarely, in my experience.
2. So what? Which pronunciation is correct? Glasgow, Barbados, Kentucky?If students master Glasgow pronunciation, which is just as valid as any other, how will this help them?
3. So what? How does this help a Chinese doing business with a Korean or Nigerian, a very likely scenario? One [sic] in a blue moon, perhaps. When I first arrived in China, my FAO [who turned out to have excellent English, with a Ph.D from a UK university], commented they'd had a lot of dogs and cats lately. I looked out on the street, but couldn't see any. Turned out he meant it had been raining cats and dogs.
4. Ditto
5. You'd assume so, but this presents an unrealistic and unattainable model to students. This may in fact inhibit their development, indicated by the unwillingness of many students to speak.

Your points work on the assumption that communication in English will be mostly spoken, and will take place with native speakers.
I think you're wrong on both points. As an earlier poster reminded us, English is a Lingua Franca [common tongue], and also most English conversations take place between non-natives, for whom your points are largely irrelevant. Jenkins [2007] estimates there are 1.5 billion speakers in this category. The ELF movement is worth looking into.

Attributes of non-Native Speaking Teachers [from Medgyes 2006]:

- they present a better, more realistic learner role model.

-they can teach language learning strategies more successfully.

-they can provide learners with more information about how English works.

-they can foresee and prevent learners' language difficulties.

-they are more sensitive to learners.

-they can communicate with learners in their first language [and in our context I mean Chinese non NESTs].
These points are worthy of consideration.

I started this topic because I'm doing a presentation with a Mongolian classmate on how the ESL-EFL continuum is shrinking, and how EFL teachers can utilise this situation to create ESL-like learning situations. 70% of the MA group are non-NESTs, sponsored by their governments. 40% of university TESOL students world-wide are non-native speakers.

So I wanted to get feedback from those in the EFL field and, as China is the largest market and where I spent 5 years, this seemed like a good place to start. I put the identical topic and initial post on another China forum. The directions the two have taken are very different. Respondents on the other forum have included several current and graduate TESOL students, all presently teaching in China, and a small number of non-NESTs.

I'm well aware that the native speaker fallacy is alive, well and unquestioned in China, and also that China provides an entry level gateway [with a very lazy gatekeeper] to EFL teaching. My contentions are that the love affair with English will fade, and that NESTs will not necessarily be seen as the best teachers for most Chinese. Time will tell.
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Lobster



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I will respond.

Quote:
1.The NEST will have internalized, accurate first-language grammar.

1. Hopefully. But can they explain grammar clearly and correctly to students? Rarely, in my experience.


This subjective analysis based on person experience can never prove anything. You are contending that a NEST somehow has inferior teaching skills. This is irrational. I have already based my suppositions on the removal of factors in training and experience to focus on language ability.


Quote:
2.The NEST will have native pronunciation and intonation.

So what? Which pronunciation is correct? Glasgow, Barbados, Kentucky?If students master Glasgow pronunciation, which is just as valid as any other, how will this help them?


They are all native accents, readily understood by both native and most non-native speakers. The same does not apply to a speaker with a pronounced non-native accent. In addition, someone with an accent cannot effectively model speech or hear and define leaners' errors as well. Most learners want to speak like people from English-speaking countries, not like English speakers from China etc.

Quote:
3.The NEST will have a grasp of idiomatic expressions.

3. So what? How does this help a Chinese doing business with a Korean or Nigerian, a very likely scenario? One [sic] in a blue moon, perhaps. When I first arrived in China, my FAO [who turned out to have excellent English, with a Ph.D from a UK university], commented they'd had a lot of dogs and cats lately. I looked out on the street, but couldn't see any. Turned out he meant it had been raining cats and dogs.


All languages are highly idiomatic, and you are deliberately overlooking the fact that command of idioms is an essential part of language use. Reducing this factor to assumed business conversations with Nigerians or Koreans is placing an illogical restriction on the purpose of second-language learning. The NEST will also be more knowledgable in terms of slang and colloquial expressions, poetic usage and many other of the other aspects that give someonje a feel for a language.


Quote:
4.The NEST will have relevant culture reference points for the language.

Ditto


You are now going to make the case that culture is not really an important factor in language, as after all, English is no longer the language of English speakers, but rather some amorphous lingua franca free of or dissapated by internationalization. Asserting that language or cultural abilities are unimportant for teachers of a language is more than just mere slipperiness. Claiming that someone with inferior skills somehow makes a superior instructor is ludicrous. Perhaps you aspire to having all learners speaking some kind of debased pidgin suitable for trading beads.


Quote:
5.The NEST will have a native standard of fluency.

You'd assume so, but this presents an unrealistic and unattainable model to students. This may in fact inhibit their development, indicated by the unwillingness of many students to speak.


So, having a good model is now somehow a negative. Learners shoul perhaps be given a faulty model to emulate due to the fact that they may be unable to achieve the same level of ability?


Quote:
Your points work on the assumption that communication in English will be mostly spoken, and will take place with native speakers.


No, they apply to all areas of English use.

Quote:
As an earlier poster reminded us, English is a Lingua Franca [common tongue], and also most English conversations take place between non-natives, for whom your points are largely irrelevant.


Although English is widely used outside the native community, I disagree that most English conversations take place between non-native speakers, regardless of numbers.

Medgeves has a position to protect; his own bread and butter. Therefore, he is willing to make any number of claims to support his position.

Quote:
- they present a better, more realistic learner role model.


Yes, they present well as learners, but not as teachers.


Quote:
-they can teach language learning strategies more successfully.


No, this is a factor related to teacher training, and not native language ability.

Quote:
-they can provide learners with more information about how English works.


No they can't. He assumes that somehow, NNESTs have received superior teacher training or have some mystical insight that trained NESTs lack.

Quote:
-they can foresee and prevent learners' language difficulties.


If they are unable to recognize and correct their own deficiencies, how can they identify them in their students' use?

Quote:
-they are more sensitive to learners.


This sensitivity is a product of having struggled to learn English? Can it be measured, or is it just so vague as to make it useless?

Quote:
-they can communicate with learners in their first language [and in our context I mean Chinese non NESTs].


How about a native speaker who has Chinese as a second language? In the context of FTs in China, it has quite another meaning.

As long as someone tries to make the point that superior language and cultural abilities somehow translates to being a better teacher, I will contend that this is quackery put forth by those with a vested interest.

Your contention that English continues to become more predominant as a lingua franca, while at the same time the demand for instruction is decreasing is contradictory.

Now, do I think that a well-trained NNEST with near-native fluency is superior to someone with an unrelated undergrad degree, and whose only ability comes from being a native speaker and who has little teacher training or experience (e.g. the typical backpacker teacher)? Yes I do. Do I think that a NNEST compares to a NEST with comparable training and experience? No, I don't. It still doesn't point to any "fallacy" regarding superior skills being an important factor in teaching.

I contend that this isn't a "love affair", but a practical necessity for many learners. As such, I see no evidence that demand will decrease. Due to the factors I have mentioned, I also believe that trained NESTs will continue to be seen as the best teachers for Chinese learners in all areas excluding academic preparation.

In most of your posts, you have not provided much rationale to counter my statements. You cannot fall back on the suppositions presented by those with vested interests who choose as a starting point the opinion that NESTs have received inferior or little teacher training. It seems this choice has been made in order to muddy the waters. You cannot place convenient restrictions on learners' perceived motivations to support a claim.

The articles you have recommended, and which I have read, are more like opinion pieces than serious scholarly works. I would tread carefully in referring to them in any academic presentation. If you are going to make the extraordinary claim that an inferiority in practical skills is an advantage for an instructor in any field, I'd expect extraordinary evidence to support that claim.

RED
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RPMcMurphy



Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Red. We'll never convince each other, but I respect your conviction and willingness to engage in discussing significant aspects of TESOL.
These issues of the English love affair, non-NESTs and NESTs, the native speaker fallacy and ELF are not my pet theories, but are actually significant sections of post graduate TESOL study within my experience, as well as being interesting ideas.
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lobster wrote:
Now, do I think that a well-trained NNEST with near-native fluency is superior to someone with an unrelated undergrad degree, and whose only ability comes from being a native speaker and who has little teacher training or experience (e.g. the typical backpacker teacher)? Yes I do. Do I think that a NNEST compares to a NEST with comparable training and experience? No, I don't. It still doesn't point to any "fallacy" regarding superior skills being an important factor in teaching.


RED,

I'm glad that you made the above point.

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RPMcMurphy wrote:
Attributes of non-Native Speaking Teachers [from Medgyes 2006]:

- they present a better, more realistic learner role model.

-they can teach language learning strategies more successfully.

-they can provide learners with more information about how English works.

-they can foresee and prevent learners' language difficulties.

-they are more sensitive to learners.

-they can communicate with learners in their first language [and in our context I mean Chinese non NESTs].


other than the final point, not a valid description of chinese NNEST
english teachers.
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RPMcMurphy



Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on what, Smelly Doufu? Your clinical observations?
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's me thises. prove me worng.
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RPMcMurphy



Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 90
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

choudoufu wrote:
that's me thises. prove me worng.

Friday night baijiu??
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it'snotmyfault



Joined: 14 May 2012
Posts: 527

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you meet people from countries such as Sweden, Germany, Holland, Israel, Singapore and any more you can think of. Why do you think they speak such good English?
Isn't it because they have a good education system in place and as a result they don't need NESTs. Until countries like China get their education system up to standard surely there will always be a need for us. From what I've seen in my short time here, I can't see it happening any time soon.
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RPMcMurphy wrote:
choudoufu wrote:
that's me thises. prove me worng.

Friday night baijiu??


jus' hoping for a little contrastive rhetoric.
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