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CELTA or other cert for Vietnam
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vabeckele



Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:30 am    Post subject: I must break you Reply with quote

skarper wrote:

What to teach - what resources/materials need to be found or made. Finding or writing the exact text you want. Possibly finding or making a recording/video. Searching for and printing out pictures. Laminating cards. Designing and proofing the worksheets needed. It's a lot of work.

The 4 hours might be 1-2 hours to rough it out. Then try it on some students once or twice. Improving or perhaps dramatically repairing the basic plan might take another 1-2 hours, and fine tuning it over the next few weeks might take another hour or two. The devil really is in the detail and it might never be 'finished'. But what you have is a unique lesson that you have confidence in and that you will be able to use over and over again.

One of the problems some people have on CELTAs and DELTAs (or equiv) is that they can't take criticism. There just isn't time to sugar coat it and it can be a problem with the format of a 4 week CELTA in particular. The same goes for DELTA level were you often have a lot of very bad habits that have to be broken or you will not pass. It's a practical course. They basically have a range of methodologies that work and you are expected to employ them - not try to invent your own pet theories. Perhaps there is more scope for that on an MA as part of the research.

The failure rate on CELTAs is very low - about 10% I think. BUT - the drop out rate is nearer 50% overall.


I can readily appreciate the fact lesson planning was a lot more difficult and time consuming a few decades ago. Today with the use of so many technologies lesson planning is a breeze. I would say teachers back then really knew the content of what they were teaching.

I would also question any course that has a fifty percent drop out rate. Surely the provider must want people to enjoy the benefits of of learning and not want to 'break' them? I for one would seriously think of changing my tactics if half of my clients quit on me; even if I was keeping all of the money. My conscience wouldn't permit it.
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skarper



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are missing my point. Of course you can plan an adequate lesson in a lot less than 4 hours. But if you're building a lesson from the ground up and it is something genuinely original then anything from 2-6 hours is typical, all told.

I think if you ask a few professional teachers then you will get that confirmed.

A typical lesson plan for a run of the mill book lesson or one off the peg and it really only takes 10-20 minutes per lesson. An annoying feature of a recent (last 10 years is maybe not recent) trend towards 45 minute lessons is that the time to plan for 45 minutes is not a lot less than the time to plan for 90 minutes. Sometimes it can actually be longer since you have no margin for error.

I have heard figures for 50% drop out rate on CELTA and equiv but I don't believe official figures are easy to confirm. I do know it is high and varies enormously from centre to centre. The more experienced places have a better selection procedure and are better at managing workflow. Some cowboy outfits mess this up and the trainees get swamped at about the week 3 point.

I've taught on and observed these courses so I'm basing it on my experience and the statements of the trainers - though I don't make any silly claims about being always right. Up to 50% is a figure I have heard mentioned in reference to the worst cases.

This also includes trainees who get right to the end but fail to hand in a piece of work. Such incompletes are not assessed and would count as drop-outs. It might also count people who register (pay for the course or at least a substantial deposit), are issued the pre-course task and never show up.

If someone can come up with an official overall figure I'd be very interested and if I'm wildy wrong I'll eat my words.

On my TESOL Dip we started with 11 and only 8 took the exams. That's a 27% drop out rate right there.

Drop outs do not get any refund so the providers and and moderators don't really mind if the drop out rate is high. This can lead to some very angry former trainees who feel they were swindled.

EDITED - I've been posting on the fly between classes so haven't always had a chance to proof read and moderate my tendency to exagerate. Sorry for misleading people without meaning to.
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 398
Location: off the radar

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@skarper - Thanks for your valuable insights and thoughts, certainly some things to think about. Perhaps I'll wait another year before the DELTA, I think I really need it for personal development, better pay and better jobs. From what I've experienced, I'm no worse than the ACs I've come across.

@vabeckele - We're all pretty much the same, BA and CELTA and some experience, one needs a leg up on other people for better jobs and to become a better teacher IMHO. My planning time needs to be reduced, but I do spend a lot of time looking for new material.
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biliana



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 53
Location: Vietnam

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thread, I've been modifying the same lesson for 30 years. Beat that for time consuming.
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vabeckele



Joined: 19 Nov 2010
Posts: 439

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Confirmed Reply with quote

Good luck, Argofoto.
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skarper



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 318

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been googling around on CELTA drop out rates and the consensus seems to be 5% overall.

My 50% figure must be half remembered gossip I picked up somewhere.

Sorry for misleading people with that.
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Argofoto



Joined: 28 Aug 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the help. I am still grounded until my lease expires next April but until then there is much planning to do!
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TRH



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 192
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:18 am    Post subject: Final decision? Reply with quote

Argofoto: This thread has gotten a little deep in the weeds with discussion of DELTA as well but it seems there has been a lot of constructive discussion (unlike some threads at times.) I was wondering which way you have decided to go:

1) Oxford in NJ
2) CELTA in NYC
3) CELTA in HCMC or Hanoi

I was reflecting the other day on what types of students you might encounter in the CELTA. If I had taken CELTA in Honolulu, the practicum classes would mostly have been Japanese students between 18 and 25, and mostly female, because that is the customer base of the providing school. In NYC you could be looking at students with several native languages in the class. That could provide you with a more challenging experience. My guess is that they would be mostly adults as young immigrant children are naturally absorbed into the English speaking environment and are less likely to need formal instruction.

I think you know my opinion that the Oxford course was adequate in my case but that with no teaching experience at all you should seriously consider CELTA. This is particularly so because of the extent to which it is favored here. I don't know who the provider is, but I would think that a CELTA from NYC might look good in Europe too. I hope you will let us know where you are come April.
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Argofoto



Joined: 28 Aug 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Oxford, I would take it at Villanova, PA, which is only a few miles away and the most convenient. That being said, a CELTA is still the better option for long-term EFL work. There is a large immigrant/student pool here in Philadelphia for me to get acclimated to teaching foreign students. Time will tell which way I go.

Actually, I am an immigrant child aka first generation American, and English is not even my first language but I speak it fluently and better than my family language. I love languages and accents and somehow can speak very close depending on the region I am. Get me down to N'awlins and I'll work on my drawl sippin on moonshine...

For now I hope to meet some people in person that have done TEFL in Vietnam. An acquaintance of mine got lucky and is working in Japan for the past 3 years, and another got into the JET program but had a stellar application and credentials. There are many options I am looking at but Vietnam remains at the top of the list along with Korea.

I also am looking at some teaching fellowships in Philadelphia, but the competition for these is extremely stiff and my GPA does not even meet the high requirements for some... I will apply nonetheless as the benefits and experiences are exceptionally good. Even so, I still want to work overseas.
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Dekadan



Joined: 09 Dec 2011
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see that there's some interest in doing a Delta in this thread. I just finished Module 1 a short time ago. Are people aware that there are online options for taking it? It's still a lot of work, but as it's modular and can be broken down, it's supposed to be a more manageable workload in comparison to doing it all at once. You can still be working while taking it, but you can say goodbye to your social life. Another potential issue is an individual's learning style: I learn best through interacting with instructors, while the online version is largely reading of texts and messages on forums.

I just thought I'd put that out there!
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 398
Location: off the radar

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dekadan wrote:
I see that there's some interest in doing a Delta in this thread. I just finished Module 1 a short time ago. Are people aware that there are online options for taking it? It's still a lot of work, but as it's modular and can be broken down, it's supposed to be a more manageable workload in comparison to doing it all at once. You can still be working while taking it, but you can say goodbye to your social life. Another potential issue is an individual's learning style: I learn best through interacting with instructors, while the online version is largely reading of texts and messages on forums.

I just thought I'd put that out there!


20 questions time:

Who are you doing the course through?
Did you have to attend an orientation day abroad?
What kind of teaching job are you doing it for?
Is your school paying for it?
What is involved in module one?

I'm all ears.
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deadlift



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 259

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Who are you doing the course through?
Did you have to attend an orientation day abroad?
What kind of teaching job are you doing it for?
Is your school paying for it?
What is involved in module one?


The course is done through International House, London. Module two requires a two week in-person orientation course, the nearest of which are in Thailand and Malaysia.

Each person would have different reasons for doing it, but a DELTA would help you get higher level and higher paying jobs, such as the "educator" position at RMIT.

I doubt that many schools will pay for it, with the exception of RMIT which will pay up to 50% of the cost professional development activities.

As for your final question: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=delta+module+one
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Dekadan



Joined: 09 Dec 2011
Posts: 93

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadlift is correct, though I'll go into more detail.

Who are you doing the course through?
I did mine through International House in London, but there are two other options that I've heard of (maybe there's more) as well: Bell and Norwich. The courses all started a month or so ago and the next ones will be starting in February or March.

Did you have to attend an orientation day abroad?
As the Delta is now modular (3 in total with a different focus for each), you can do them module by module as your schedule allows. There's also a blended one, but I don't know much about that as I'm not taking it. It's recommended that you take Module 1 first as it will give you background information and knowledge that will be used in the other two. This question applies to Module 2: for International House, they make you do an orientation course of two weeks (I believe that's the correct number) available in various cities around the globe. I don't think there's one in HCMC, but I think there's one in Bangkok. Bell and Norwich don't require this and I believe that the duration of their course is shorter (3 months compared to IH's 9 months). I don't know how they can condense it without losing quality, but you still get a Cambridge certified Delta diploma out of it. Perhaps it's more intense.

What kind of teaching job are you doing it for?
A few reasons why I'm doing it: I'd like to get at some of the nicer university gigs and to ensure that I'll be receiving near the top end of the pay scale at whatever job I end up at. Additionally, I want to be the best teacher that I can. Also, the Delta is counted as credits towards a masters degree at some universities (British ones, I believe). So you get accreditation and a good chunk towards finishing a masters. Perhaps one day I'll get into teacher training too.

Is your school paying for it?
Sadly, no, my school isn't. I'm looking into other options at the moment. If I recall correctly, ILA offered the Delta and if you worked for them you got a discount and money back for each year that you continued to work for them. British Council also tends to help out. As mentioned, RMIT will help out.

My school knows that I intend to move on and soon, so I doubt they'd spring for it, but if you were committed to your school you might be able to get them to reimburse you. With that said, it's not that expensive, at least in comparison to a masters. For Module 1, all expenses in, it was under $1000. I think you can get the entire thing for about $4000. As it usually gives you a bump in pay, it should pay for itself fairly quickly.

What is involved in module one?
Module 1 is theory- and terminology-based. It goes through the history of ESL teaching and the different methodologies that have been used. You're also expected to bone up on all of the metalanguage that can be used in ESL (e.g., homonym vs homophone vs homograph), plus the phonemic chart. There is a lot of reading. The schools offering it say that you can get away with 10 hours a week of work, but there were times that I was putting in 30 hours. If you do it, you'll work for it!

As I mentioned, there was a lot of reading. You need to be honest with yourself and your learning style. This was a struggle for me as I prefer a lecture format where I can ask questions of someone. There was talk of including videos and other formats at the end of the course, but I don't know if it's been introduced yet. When I did it (wrote the exam in June), it was all text-based: books, assignments, emails, forums. If that's not your style and you aren't sure you can adapt, then I suggest taking a few months off and doing an intensive Delta all at once.

There are assignments that are based on older exams due once every week or two, but it doesn't matter for your mark if you pass or fail them. You do them to get the feedback from your tutors on what you can improve on. The only thing that matters is passing the written exam that happens in December and in June. You can take the exam without going through the course, but in all likelihood you'll fail it. This is not a knock on whatever skills you bring to the table because the course also teaches you how to take the exam and what style of answer they're looking for. It's a three hour exam where you'll be scribbling furiously for all of it. You'll need to be as efficient as possible when getting your answers onto the page.

Anyway, I hope that helps! Best of luck and let me know if you decide to take it!
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 398
Location: off the radar

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much, Dekadan.

My mill might pay for half if I give them my word I'll be working for them for several years.....not quite sure if I want to do that. Not keen on doing it full-time so I'll have to put some more thought into when I'll do it.

Are there any reading texts you recommend in terms of different methodologies used in EFL or any for general teaching that can get me started as pre-reading for module one? I can use google but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

How many years did you have up your sleeve before you started the DELTA?

Thanks!
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Mattingly



Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the information, derkadan

Is there a fly-in observation of your class by a Cambridge rep?

Or, under this online DELTA is it all on your own with no observations?
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