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War! Huh! What is it good for?!

 
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teacher X



Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 192
Location: Super Sovietsky Apartment Box 918

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: War! Huh! What is it good for?! Reply with quote

So, it looks like they're building a giant fan and are intending on throwing large amounts of feces at it.

I don't think I'll be sunning myself in the Crimea any time soon.
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ones, who invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and who bombed Libya or former Yugoslavia, may have the answer to the posed question.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 9509
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The ones, who invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and who bombed Libya or former Yugoslavia, may have the answer to the posed question.



I really doubt that - and hope that 'the ones, who...' have learned a lesson or two.

A bit worried about what will happen, though .... and I sure haven't any answers!
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9580
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answers? Here they are! Peace, love and universal fraternity, especially between brother nations. No mysteries there. All dialectically clear.
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teacher X



Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 192
Location: Super Sovietsky Apartment Box 918

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wonderingjoesmith wrote:
The ones, who invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and who bombed Libya or former Yugoslavia, may have the answer to the posed question.


Nah, you don't seem to understand world politics. It's ok to invade Afghanistan when you're the good guys. It's called 'Liberating' when we do it. When a country we don't like does it, it's called 'Invading'.

Anyway, enough of such politics...

I'm curious how this may affect our visas. There's talk flying around (although I've not been able to find a decent source) that the EU and UK are planning on denying Russians visas as punishment.
If that happens, you can be sure that Russia will respond in kind.

With my visa coming up for renewal in the summer, I'm wondering if I'll even be allowed back into Russia. Also, my summer holiday flights all have connections in Kiev...DAMMIT! They'd better sort their mess out before summer lest they ruin my holiday plans.
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

teacher X wrote:
wonderingjoesmith wrote:
The ones, who invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and who bombed Libya or former Yugoslavia, may have the answer to the posed question.


Nah, you don't seem to understand world politics. It's ok to invade Afghanistan when you're the good guys. It's called 'Liberating' when we do it. When a country we don't like does it, it's called 'Invading'.
The same assessment could go for people who impose their values on others and who think they are good. Do the good guys follow laws? The fact is that not all the laws were adhered to in all provided examples. The fact is that the former Ukrainian president, who was charged a few days ago, is still the president according to laws. The fact is that however convenient for west now, the current leadership is illegal and that a few present Ukrainian government officials are extremists to look out for. No need to thank me for the lesson Smile
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FreakingTea



Joined: 09 Jan 2013
Posts: 163

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imperialist Russia and imperialist America are fighting over who gets to exploit Ukraine, and America is backing neo-nazis. Basically all of it is bad and I oppose both sides, especially the "pro-Europe" side. The Ukrainians should push them all out and overthrow their illegitimate government.
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet many, no matter how inconvenient to some, agree that Ukrainians (themselves) should form a more legitimate government than they have; however, it is unfortunate (hopefully not fatal) that locals' emotions, renegades and foreign powers played such an enormous part in forming the new questionable Ukrainian government. Moreover, it most likely is late for Crimea to be re-united with the rest of the nation which has been independent since 1991 and which has been given the peninsula as a token of friendship in 1954.

The anxiety, under which some Ukrainians acted when they overthrew and literally forced their legitimate president out, has been running extremely high. Sadly enough, their actions that followed Yanukovich's agreement to call elections have been so erratic and without much of an appropriate leadership. The boxing champ Klitschko and his rebelious group may be sorry for allowing one outlaw called Parasiuk, whom some western media irrationally portraited as a "hero", to make an emotional speach that almost instantly compromised Klitschko's deal with the (former) president who few hours later had to run. Had the youngster not spoken to the crowd and had the radicals not reacted so irrationally (disregarding brokered deal and laws), Crimea would probably have still been in hands of Klitschko, Parasiuk and the rest of Ukrainians; had the zealotry and hatred for Yanukovich been rationalized with more diplomacy than it has, the country and its peninsula would have surely been under their control today.

Most sorrowfully, the incredibly poor diplomacy and unforgiving interferences from developed western nations that greatly contributed to the current situation in Ukraine have endangered the peace they advocate around the world. Why Angela Merkel and the Polish who have done so little? Both of those nations' participation has been ludicrously intriguing for Ukraine as well as for Russia. Why haven't the EU and the US put more effort into negotiations, when they wanted to participate? Why have the western powers been excluding and ignoring Russia so much? Perhaps, the reason is that they had little to go on with to claw their way closer to oil, to Moscow and the communists they seem to hate so much.

Conclusively, meddling in souvereign nations affairs is dreadfully dangerous, especially if it is poorly planned and/or supported by the knowledge of history. Buying the support of independent governments may be gravely unpredictable. Ukraine has become a ticking bomb not only for itself but the whole world and Crimea has returned to Russia for the incompetent leadership in Kiyv. Whether or not the dangerous Ukrainian crisis comes closer to where the international conflict prior to WWI was unfortunately remains to be seen; whether Russia that has well demonstrated its skills and power bloodily with Nazis and without any spilled blood (unlike the west) in Crimea has re-gained the respect of the world’s community it had during cold war era remains to be seen as well as is the impact of the western media manipulative machine.
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maruss



Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 1023
Location: Cyprus

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:14 am    Post subject: Will they ? Reply with quote

Despite the media hype in recent days, my gut feeling is that Putin is not stupid enough to attack Ukraine because the international repercussions against Russia in other 'non-violent' ways would not be worth the risk. Sabre rattling and grandstanding are hopefully as bad as this situation is going to get? His main Interest is that Russia keeps control of the Sevastopol base and if that means keeping a military force there then he will insist on it and probably get at least tolerance, if not approval internationally. To understand Putins way of thinking and to realize what kind of person he is there are some serious and very worthwhile books written by both Russian and foreign authors for those who are interested.
Yanukovitch is also another thug with a lot of ill-earned money and a very dubious past but as my friends in eastern Ukraine, who are Russian speaking say, and who also hated him, the problem now is what happens next??Words of encouragement from abroad are not going to solve their problems and ultimately neither will economic aid on its own......
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teacher X



Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 192
Location: Super Sovietsky Apartment Box 918

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wonderingjoesmith wrote:

No need to thank me for the lesson Smile


Don't worry, I had no intention of thanking you. Smile
I was being flippant and simply making a mildly humorous point about the hypocrisy of western nations. (the illegal invasion in Iraq was ok because it was done by the US. but the illegal invasion of Ukraine is bad because it was done by Russia.)

But you just had to go and be all serious and intelligent and shit. Intelligence has no place in one of my threads. Leave it outside before you come in. Wink
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

teacher X wrote:
wonderingjoesmith wrote:

No need to thank me for the lesson Smile


Don't worry, I had no intention of thanking you. Smile
I was being flippant and simply making a mildly humorous point about the hypocrisy of western nations. (the illegal invasion in Iraq was ok because it was done by the US. but the illegal invasion of Ukraine is bad because it was done by Russia.)

But you just had to go and be all serious and intelligent and shit. Intelligence has no place in one of my threads. Leave it outside before you come in. Wink
My sincere appologies for being so sensitive. Now, I hope i've left all my sh*t and intelligence outside. Smile
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expatella_girl



Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 224
Location: somewhere out there

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on the whole thing is, that all of the artificial pencil and paper divisions and shufflings invented at the end of WW2 (now 70 years ago) are all falling apart, as might have been expected. But they did last the lifetime of the pencil-ers, which is all they were expected to do.

The calamities of the 21st century will come. The artificial boundaries and agreements that were decided on by a handful of men nearly a century ago will not hold. The bitter end of those agreements is near.

What happens next we cannot know. But I'm guessing the changes that are on the way will not come without a great deal of ugliness for many people in many places. The usual peasants will suffer the usual annihilation, deprivation, and brutality. Central Europe, and the former Ottoman empire region will likely be hard hit - as usual.

IMHO the safest places in this next major upheaval will be south America and Russia. Both vast, with low population densities, and large natural resources.

This is only the beginning. The unraveling comes. No one knows now where the next Archduke Ferdinand awaits, but that moment is in the wings.
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Will they ? Reply with quote

maruss wrote:
Despite the media hype in recent days, my gut feeling is that Putin is not stupid enough to attack Ukraine because the international repercussions against Russia in other 'non-violent' ways would not be worth the risk. Sabre rattling and grandstanding are hopefully as bad as this situation is going to get? His main Interest is that Russia keeps control of the Sevastopol base and if that means keeping a military force there then he will insist on it and probably get at least tolerance, if not approval internationally. To understand Putins way of thinking and to realize what kind of person he is there are some serious and very worthwhile books written by both Russian and foreign authors for those who are interested.
Yanukovitch is also another thug with a lot of ill-earned money and a very dubious past but as my friends in eastern Ukraine, who are Russian speaking say, and who also hated him, the problem now is what happens next??Words of encouragement from abroad are not going to solve their problems and ultimately neither will economic aid on its own......
The whole Crimea is now under the Russian rule.

There is no need to focus only on Putin just like there is not need to focus only on Obama, since Medvedev and his people as well as Kerry and his people have confirmed that.

Rather than inspecting Putin trying to understand the millions of Ukraine's overseas nationals and their host nations' attitudes would probably be more significant.

The "ill-earned money" and "thugs" are evidently hidden behind the scenes of the diplomatic negotiations.

What happens next is that most, if not all, the 18-40 years old enlisted Ukrainians will suffer either way and so will the rest of the nation.

Those "encouragements" from abroad that are mentioned above are most likely the reason why Ukraine is in turmoil and breaking up with Crimea.

As for Russia, it will re-affirm itself on the world stage, adjust its course and do business with other nations than Ukraine, EU or the US whose economies will idle.
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