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Unusual Situation - ESL Teaching without US/UK/AU/etc Pass..
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alexESL



Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Unusual Situation - ESL Teaching without US/UK/AU/etc Pass.. Reply with quote

Hello all. I wanted to get you alls take on this particular situation, since it doesn't seem to be covered anywhere on the internet.

I'm a native speaker of English, born and raised in the Washington DC area. Went to college in Texas and got my associates. I moved to Europe to be with family and am about to finish my bachelors at Open University UK.

I recently renounced my US citizenship. Naturally this means I no longer have a US passport. Nonetheless I AM a native speaker and have all the skills that come with that...

From what I have been able to tell, most countries that pay any decent money, want native speakers, but relatively few (China, SK, Vietnam) have a government requirement for a US/UK/etc passport.

Mid 20s
I have a Swedish passport
I lived in the US basically my whole life up until 3 years ago.
I am a native speaker
No "English-Speaking Passport"
I've had over 12 years of education in an English speaking country (Japan's requirement)
AA business administration
BA general studies, most upper level classes are focused on English (open university uk)
Planned:
CELTA
MA TESOL (good idea? or not necessary?)


I've come up with a short list of countries that I should and shouldn't be able to teach in as far as I can tell:

YES:
Japan (12 yrs of edu. in a english speaking country)
EU
Saudi Arabia (There is no formal govt req?)
UAE
Oman
Russia (I speak limited Russian, and there is no govt requirement to be a native speaker: it doesn't pay very well now...but I think the ESL market here will explode at some point...driving up prices)
Hong Kong (thanks jmbf)

NO:
China (Not officially..)
Vietnam (not officially...) I heard you can teach for 3 months without a work visa and just school-hop 4 times a year?
south korea (I've heard they hunt down illegal ESL teachers here and deport them? probably not the best place to teach illegally...)

I think I've covered all the high-paying areas...

I'm looking for general advice and anything else you guys think might be helpful. I love teaching ESL and did it for a short time while in the US (to Mexican immigrants), and I would hate for my renunciation to destroy that dream...


Last edited by alexESL on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jmbf



Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can add Hong Kong to your YES list if you want.

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Hong-Kong/Hong-Kong-Guide/Jobs/Teaching-English-in-Hong-Kong
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2buckets



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 492
Location: Middle East

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally, your passport determines how you are treated in the Middle East.
That means you will mostly likely be treated as Swedish.

Couldn't you have kept your US passport and been a dual national?
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alexESL



Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jmbf wrote:
You can add Hong Kong to your YES list if you want.

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Hong-Kong/Hong-Kong-Guide/Jobs/Teaching-English-in-Hong-Kong


Your article said something interesting, it mentioned that part-time teachers often registered as businesses (sole-proprietors).

I wonder...would this be a way to get around the requirement for a "work visa" in places like SK/Vietnam/China? Permission to work can be issued very generally in some countries (you can take any job) or very specifically (you can only work in...science fields) If it was issued generally and an entrepreneurial visa gave me the right to work in that specific country.....

If anyone knows anything about going down this path I'd also appreciate some info.
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alexESL



Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2buckets wrote:
Generally, your passport determines how you are treated in the Middle East.
That means you will mostly likely be treated as Swedish.

Couldn't you have kept your US passport and been a dual national?


Me renouncing had more to do with me and how I saw my future playing out. Both the US and Sweden allow dual citizenship. I don't really want to get into it too much on a public forum. Let's just say there's a reason why US citizenship renunciations have skyrocketed in the last 6 years.
https://domoregooddeeds.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/bye-bye-america.jpg

About the Middle East, is that so? Well that sucks.. hopefully the fact that it says "Birthplace: Washington, DC USA" will help. But from what I have understood, there are no hard-and-fast government restrictions on who can be issued a work visa? I've seen a lot of requirements for "native speaker" in the ME, but the only place I've seen a passport requirement is in Asia.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 9900
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexESL wrote:
I moved to Europe to be with family and am about to finish my bachelors at Open University UK.

I no longer have a US passport. Nonetheless I AM a native speaker and have all the skills that come with that...

From what I have been able to tell, most countries that pay any decent money, want native speakers, but relatively few (China, SK, Vietnam) have a government requirement for a US/UK/etc passport.

Mid 20s
I have a Swedish passport
I lived in the US basically my whole life up until 3 years ago.
I am a native speaker
No "English-Speaking Passport"
I've had over 12 years of education in an English speaking country (Japan's requirement)
AA business administration
BA general studies, most upper level classes are focused on English (open university uk)
Planned:
CELTA
MA TESOL (good idea? or not necessary?)
....

Saudi Arabia (There is no formal govt req?)
UAE
Oman
....

I would hate for my renunciation to destroy that dream...

Forget Saudi Arabia (as well as Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, and likely the UAE); your Open University BA will disqualify you for an employment visa because it entails online course credits. (Scroll down this forum to the thread "Teaching English as a career" and read the most recent posts.) Plus, a passport from the US, UK, Canada, etc., is a requirement for some Gulf employers for visa purposes.

Oman may be an option, but you'll need a TESOL-related BA and/or MA and post-degree experience.
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alexESL



Joined: 14 Jul 2015
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:
alexESL wrote:
I moved to Europe to be with family and am about to finish my bachelors at Open University UK.

I no longer have a US passport. Nonetheless I AM a native speaker and have all the skills that come with that...

From what I have been able to tell, most countries that pay any decent money, want native speakers, but relatively few (China, SK, Vietnam) have a government requirement for a US/UK/etc passport.

Mid 20s
I have a Swedish passport
I lived in the US basically my whole life up until 3 years ago.
I am a native speaker
No "English-Speaking Passport"
I've had over 12 years of education in an English speaking country (Japan's requirement)
AA business administration
BA general studies, most upper level classes are focused on English (open university uk)
Planned:
CELTA
MA TESOL (good idea? or not necessary?)
....

Saudi Arabia (There is no formal govt req?)
UAE
Oman
....

I would hate for my renunciation to destroy that dream...

Forget Saudi Arabia (as well as Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, and likely the UAE); your Open University BA will disqualify you for an employment visa because it entails online course credits. (Scroll down this forum to the thread "Teaching English as a career" and read the most recent posts.) Plus, a passport from the US, UK, Canada, etc., is a requirement for some Gulf employers for visa purposes.

Oman may be an option, but you'll need a TESOL-related BA and/or MA and post-degree experience.


Yea...i had forgotten that they didn't particularly look kindly on online degrees...for whatever silly reason.

Would it help that a lot of the credits (2 out of 3 years) were transferred from US institution and were completed totally in-class?

Also, I could do my MA in-class if that would open up that entire region for me...it would be more expensive but if it would open up high paying jobs in ME for me, I'd be willing to do that. Otherwise I'll likely just do an online MA, again at open university, just because of how convenient and cheap it is.

Obviously I..like many I can imagine, don't particularly want to work in a 120F desert with no alcohol or really anything at all to do. But the money is great in the ME from what I have seen.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 9900
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexESL wrote:
Would it help that a lot of the credits (2 out of 3 years) were transferred from US institution and were completed totally in-class?

Also, I could do my MA in-class if that would open up that entire region for me...it would be more expensive but if it would open up high paying jobs in ME for me, I'd be willing to do that. Otherwise I'll likely just do an online MA, again at open university, just because of how convenient and cheap it is.

No, having any online course credits gets your degree rejected. Regardless, you would still lack the requisite passport.


Last edited by nomad soul on Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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santi84



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1250
Location: under da sea

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the ME is off limits for the reasons given by nomad soul. Don't take it personally, it's just the way the region views nationality and distance learning as it relates to English language learning. Heck, I've got a number of distance courses in my TESL undergrad and I'm off the list, even though I'm currently working at a Canadian college. Maybe things will change one day, but fretting about the bureaucracy of the ME is futile. You're not even there yet to deal with how bad bureaucracy really gets. The money in the ME is for those with full brick & mortar degrees (including an MA/MEd TESOL), as well as experience at that level (obviously, international K-12 teachers take a different route, but similar standards apply). Egypt, although not recommended at this time for safety reasons, is a place that didn't care about distance classes. There's no money in it though.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 9900
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of where you apply, I suggest not mentioning during interviews that you renounced your US citizenship; it can be a major turn off to potential foreign employers. You're a Swedish citizen with native English proficiency. Period.
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Jmbf



Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 369

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alexESL wrote:


Your article said something interesting, it mentioned that part-time teachers often registered as businesses (sole-proprietors).

I wonder...would this be a way to get around the requirement for a "work visa" in places like SK/Vietnam/China? Permission to work can be issued very generally in some countries (you can take any job) or very specifically (you can only work in...science fields) If it was issued generally and an entrepreneurial visa gave me the right to work in that specific country.....

If anyone knows anything about going down this path I'd also appreciate some info.


Not sure about how it works in other countries, but in HK there are conditions which you must fulfil in order to legally work as a freelancer. Namely, you must first have the right to work freely here before being able to apply for a sole proprietorship. The right to work freely usually comes from having a dependent visa (i.e. a spouse working full-time in HK) or having gained Permanent Residency by living and working here legally for at least 7 continuous years.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 14726
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a colleague at KFUPM in my time there who was a Swedish citizen and native speaker of English.

Your OU degree might be a problem. (I am not sure that KSA and other Gulf States will accept that.
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Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 1544
Location: Home

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for plain speaking and not offering empty advice to give false hope, but the negativity above is appalling. The OP's clearly done the research and asked about the EU, Japan, Russia and, oh yes, the Middle East.

Enter the usual suspects who make it sound like a fat camel shall pass through the eye of a tiny needle before anyone but the chosen few enter the Middle East.

Nomad Soul, why don't you write a sticky post about how to gain employment in the ME, preferably in the ME forum? You're repeating yourself with nothing new. Moderators, can you sort this in the ME forum, please?

I'd still really like to hear from others about places such as Japan or Russia, so speak up, please.
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suphanburi



Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 694

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For most of Asia the lack of a NES passport is a non issue.
Exceptions would be places like Korea where it is a visa requirement rather than an employer requirement.

The bad news is that without related, education related credentials he (A NNES passport holder) will be relegated to somewhere between a white NES and an Asian NNES for salaries ( about 2/3 of what a NES passport holder will get paid for doing the same job).

Yes, bias and bigotry are not only common throughout the region but legal as well.

Since he has nothing more than the next bog standard applicant (generic BA) he will be limited to entry level jobs throughout the region.

Would an MATESOL help? Not in Asia.

Also of note: the CELTA won't do much for you in Asia other than help you keep whatever job you do find when you get tossed into a classroom with the only instruction being, "Teach". Outside of China a TEFL cert is NOT a visa requirement and most employers don't care once a "teacher" can qualify for a visa.

.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11251
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EU is the glowing rosy bright spot in your picture, OP. Your citizenship will not be a problem, employers are likely to look beyond the passport and notice that you are a native 'merican speaker (be sure it's prominently displayed on your CV and all other documents), and they won't care about the online components of your education.

Downside is that good jobs (universities, DOS/teacher trainer at private schools, and international school gigs) are relatively rare, and are usually found through networking,

In any case, PM sent.
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