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Online jobs taking in-person jobs?
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blueberrymango



Joined: 27 Sep 2015
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Online jobs taking in-person jobs? Reply with quote

Seems like a lot of the job listings I'm seeing now are for online teaching.

Those of you teaching in foreign countries, do you think that online teaching will replace a large portion of in-person foreign language teaching jobs? Do you see it happening currently?

As a language learner myself, I'd highly prefer attending classes with a native speaking teacher right in front of me, rather than on a screen.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15035
Location: Respice post te! Hominem te esse memento! Memento mori!

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure
I AM sure that the "native-speaker" hype is just that. Hype. Give me someone who knows how to teach and forget what her/his mother tongue is.
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blueberrymango



Joined: 27 Sep 2015
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scot47 wrote:
Not sure
I AM sure that the "native-speaker" hype is just that. Hype. Give me someone who knows how to teach and forget what her/his mother tongue is.

Eh... maybe. I have heard a lot of non-native language speakers teach things incorrectly, or teach archaic, non-typical language. Personally, I'd rather speak to someone who could teach me how locals actually talk, rather than how to speak like it's coming from a textbook. However, if the non-native teacher is knowledgeable and (like you said) a good teacher, it could definitely work out better than an ineffective native speaking teacher. I do agree that a good teacher is the most important factor in the situation, regardless of their native language.
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Kowloon



Joined: 11 Jan 2016
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with Scot. Don't think the online teacher wave will come to pass, but I do think that the Native trend in each country is always doomed to die off a bit. I was in Korea 09/10 which was the peak for TEFL visas being issues (around 20,000 I think), it's now less than half that and has been going down every year. Same happened in Japan, will happen in China eventually. Perhaps Indonesia will take over for a while before the same occurs there.

The market/parents/the media/whoever eventually become aware of the issues and the 'profession' eats itself. There will always be decent jobs about for those with qualifications and experience, but the days of the academy gig with free flights, a nice apartment and a livable wage are numbered for the 'just a BA' types.
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blueberrymango



Joined: 27 Sep 2015
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kowloon wrote:
Agree with Scot. Don't think the online teacher wave will come to pass, but I do think that the Native trend in each country is always doomed to die off a bit. I was in Korea 09/10 which was the peak for TEFL visas being issues (around 20,000 I think), it's now less than half that and has been going down every year. Same happened in Japan, will happen in China eventually. Perhaps Indonesia will take over for a while before the same occurs there.

The market/parents/the media/whoever eventually become aware of the issues and the 'profession' eats itself. There will always be decent jobs about for those with qualifications and experience, but the days of the academy gig with free flights, a nice apartment and a livable wage are numbered for the 'just a BA' types.

I guess, in theory, the industry should kill itself out? Native speaking teachers teach local speakers until they are fluent, then those local speakers are able to teach others in their own country, making native speaking teachers unnecessary?
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Kowloon



Joined: 11 Jan 2016
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be the vision of a lot of education depts. of various governments I imagine, but I doubt it will happen that way!

Why have a native speaker in the first place? As native speakers we start from 'why not have one', but turn the question round. Surely a competent user of the language who can also converse with students in their L1 is the ideal teacher? Particularly in 'proper' school settings where loads of kids will never reach proficiency, and for whom socialization, life long learning skills, behavior management etc. is way more important than practicing the first conditional (or trig, or learning about the Crusades etc.)

As narratives around inclusion start to influence more education systems people will rightly question why so much money is spent on programmes that help so few students. The reality is, it's almost pre-determined. Those from middle class families and above, who have access to tutors, Western media and home education resources, have English speaking parents, and are encouraged to succeed will become accomplished speakers of English regardless of their exposure to natives. Those who do not, won't.

I think of people like my wife, her colleagues, my Uni professors, my colleagues. All of whom have great English and never learned from a native speaker.

*all of the comments above apply only to programmes in Government Schools in countries where people all speak the same L1. If you have a class where students do not share an L1 you've struck gold and a Native speaker is ideal.
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bograt



Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 283

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why have a native speaker in the first place? As native speakers we start from 'why not have one', but turn the question round. Surely a competent user of the language who can also converse with students in their L1 is the ideal teacher? Particularly in 'proper' school settings where loads of kids will never reach proficiency, and for whom socialization, life long learning skills, behavior management etc. is way more important than practicing the first conditional (or trig, or learning about the Crusades etc.)


The reason for having NETS in Asian contexts may well be that it's the only way you can guarantee the students will get any L2 input. The ideal teacher may be how you described it but local teachers who converse almost entirely in L1 seem to be more the norm in Asian countries.
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voyagerksa



Joined: 29 Apr 2015
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rote learning and bad pronunciation are the main reasons for NET's. Also foreign speakers don't understand tenses
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 10765
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, but what does any of this have to do with the OP's assertion that there are more online teaching postings than before? Confused
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Kowloon



Joined: 11 Jan 2016
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:
Sure, but what does any of this have to do with the OP's assertion that there are more online teaching postings than before? Confused


The discussion developed in a different direction. What's wrong with that? Confused

OP -
Quote:
I'd highly prefer attending classes with a native speaking teacher right in front of me, rather than on a screen.


Post 2 -
Quote:
I AM sure that the "native-speaker" hype is just that. Hype. Give me someone who knows how to teach and forget what her/his mother tongue is.


Post 3 (OP)
Quote:
However, if the non-native teacher is knowledgeable and (like you said) a good teacher, it could definitely work out better than an ineffective native speaking teacher.


Post 4 -
Quote:
Agree with Scot.... I do think that the Native trend in each country is always doomed to die off a bit.


And so on...
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 10765
Location: The real world

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: Online jobs taking in-person jobs? Reply with quote

blueberrymango wrote:
Seems like a lot of the job listings I'm seeing now are for online teaching.

Those of you teaching in foreign countries, do you think that online teaching will replace a large portion of in-person foreign language teaching jobs? Do you see it happening currently?

As a language learner myself, I'd highly prefer attending classes with a native speaking teacher right in front of me, rather than on a screen.

You're probably seeing more online teaching jobs because it's a popular medium for learners who can't attend an in-person English class for whatever reason. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that non-native speakers are "taking" those TESOL jobs since the teacher doesn't have to physically be in the same country as the student.
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eldryan



Joined: 23 May 2017
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Online is worse than in-person. But, too many in-person teachers suck. So, there is a market for online teachers who want to make a decent salary, while living in a different place.

Native speakers definitely better than non-native, and shouldn't be a discussion. How can you learn legitimate English from someone who can barely speak well enough to give a class?

It's like learning Trig from a high school student. Sure, they may have studied pre-calculus, but they shouldn't be teaching trig.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11404
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have heard a lot of non-native language speakers teach things incorrectly, or teach archaic, non-typical language. Personally, I'd rather speak to someone who could teach me how locals actually talk, rather than how to speak like it's coming from a textbook


How do English speaking 'locals' actually talk? Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Native speakers definitely better than non-native, and shouldn't be a discussion. How can you learn legitimate English from someone who can barely speak well enough to give a class?


So, in your experience, no non-native speaker can speak well enough to give a class? Come North...as scot points out, there are parts of the world where the locals are entirely qualified in every way to teach English. Asia is not the world...

As for online learning, it's a reasonable supplement to other types of language study. I've done it myself as a student - it doesn't take the place of actual lessons or real practice on the streets, but it's got some value.
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kev20



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In China the local teachers generally decline to the level of their best students over the first few years of teaching. Some of the older teachers are awful at speaking. The best speakers of English I've met invariably don't teach it.

The public school set-up with foreign teachers is a complete joke to be honest. Access to foreign teacher classes should be restricted to the best students and they should be seeing that teacher a few times a week, in an ideal world.

Some of the regulations in China are also making it very difficult for small English schools to hire native speakers. They need a license which is very difficult to get and usually involves brown envelopes or knowing someone who can help. Most of these places are hiring non-natives instead, illegally on travel visas, as people from Eastern Europe are more willing to accept the risk that comes with that. Native speakers will look elsewhere (online for example). I think I read China has a shortage of one million foreign English teachers. With the difficulty in hiring legally, I'm not surprised more are going online.
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RedLightning



Joined: 08 Aug 2015
Posts: 97
Location: United States

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The native vs proficient non-native argument can go on and on, but if I were learning Chinese I'd feel much more comfortable (and confident with my results) if I were taught by a Chinese person rather than Steve the white guy who 'speaks excellent Chinese'

As to online teaching, I suspect the majority of these employers are those who have very few resources and/or are purely profit driven
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