Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

To fail a student or is it futile?
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> China (Job-related Posts Only)
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:37 pm    Post subject: To fail a student or is it futile? Reply with quote

I teach two 45 minute classes each time I meet with a class. One student in these classes often comes late, well into the second 45 minute class. So, she always misses about an hour out of 1.5.

We had a "final exam" which wasn't really a final exam in the sense students had to write anything. I clearly told this to all the students. Otherwise, others wouldn't have attended either. They usually talk with each other and give me the work needed. Not this student. She came to the class and then left after 10 minutes.

Near the end of class, I handed around a piece of paper for everyone to sign their name as a way of taking attendance. What a coincidence, she shows up at the door with another student that left with her. Someone in the class had messaged her that I was taking attendance. I kicked her out and told her she could not leave the class and then re-enter at the end. Either she stays in class like everyone else or faces the consequences.

The next day, I had the same type of class with different students. One other student left the previous day because she said she was sick. She emailed me that day and I allowed her to come to this class to make it up. She came early and made it up. The other girl (the problem student) waited until about 15 minutes before the 1.5 hour class was to finish and then just waltzed into the class as if I was going to give her credit a second time.

So, I am wondering what to do about this. 60% is passing at this school (I assume all colleges follow this?), and I would really like to put 59% down for her. I just don't know what good it would do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2406
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an aside I always wonder about these situations.
The student is putting more effort into her contrived attendance/non-attendance than it would cost her to come to class and participate like the others.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johntpartee



Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3231

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only ever failed one student in China and the school passed him. I've heard that this is pretty much the norm.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ariadne



Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 960

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've failed several students. I have them back again in class this year which proves that they did actually fail last year. You need to have a plan for grading... so much for this, so much for that. Let the students know what you expect. I'm not above fiddling with a few points for a student who attends and tries, but students who don't do the work don't get a passing grade.


.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shroob



Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1209

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Ariadne says, make sure it's clear what is expected of them. My personal grading system is this:
End of year exam = 60%
Mid term exam (presentation) = 20%
Effort = 20%

I keep a class register and mark down if a student has done well, or made an effort. When the time for the exam comes, I know who's put in the work.

I've never personally failed a student, a colleague did and the student was made to repeat the year again. Though there was a lot of pressure from the boss to pass them (in the end the student just went to another teacher, who gave them a pass).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GeminiTiger



Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 999
Location: China, 2005--Present

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have failed a few students in these past years. But it comes down to two things.

Their ability must be unacceptable in the course to be considered passable.
AND
They have to lack all sense of having tried or being decent human beings.

In a very special case, last Fall I failed 3 students in a class, the next term 2 of them tried to be humans and students and the other 1 stopped coming to class.

No regrets. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They have to lack all sense of having tried or being decent human beings.


Well, the results are in. I am 100% done with these senior classes. Three students are in question, all others have satisfied my requirements.

Student 1 - went to America, so he missed September classes. He did some extra work and I feel he made up for it. However, he didn't show up for my final (it wasn't really a final as in a test, just to see if people would attend, he didn't). So, now he is near the bottom, but I can still set up a formula based on the other students. He still passes.

Student 2 - told me she couldn't come this week, but she told me at least. We discussed this in class, and everyone else was willing to let her make it up next week. If all things go well, no problem.

Student 3 - came to the final, left the class after 10 minutes, returned 10 minutes before class ended to look like she was there the whole time, came to my other class the next day to "explain", to which she was asked to leave, emailed me last night at midnight asking to make up "the final", and didn't come to a class after the final to discuss extra work other students are doing to improve their grade.

I have decided to contact Student 2, not give any more breaks to Student 1 since he is already going to pass (but with a low score), and wait until the end of next week to let Student 3 know. I figure she can worry if she will pass or fail while trying to pass the other classes, and that will be punishment enough. Let her conscience be her guide. If she doesn't care, then I don't care either and let her move on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kungfuman



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1398
Location: In My Own Private Idaho

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on your school's policy. last school I worked at made the students pay 2,500 for a retest or if they failed. I failed the problem students and they had to pay the school $ for a retest. those that missed many classes or left early every class received zero curving. They got a 55 they failed.

HOWEVER in some schools they want the students to pass.

Figure out what your school wants and tow the party line
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
walkinginmemphis



Joined: 19 Sep 2012
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first university position, the school simply changed the failing students.

My current university... the school by no means changed a thing. I even failed students for cheating on final exams and reported their score as "cheating" and trust me, it was NEVER changed as two students left school due to the failing and the others remained and I'm begged every day (by student and family and friends) to change their score and give 'em another chance.

It depends on your facility and how hard you hold your ground to professionalism.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
milkweedma



Joined: 19 Nov 2006
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Passing or failing and competition are are precepts of neo-liberal ideology and especially in China where systemic failure in any standard of education due to it being money driven and corrupt means failing anybody is a waste of your input. Concentrate on cultivating their spoken english and if they give up pass them anyway. Not only this, but the students lives are going to be hellish there anyway so why not give them some joy before the harsh inescapable realities of life in China decend on them?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kungfuman



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1398
Location: In My Own Private Idaho

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milkweedma wrote:
Passing or failing and competition are are precepts of neo-liberal ideology and especially in China where systemic failure in any standard of education due to it being money driven and corrupt means failing anybody is a waste of your input. Concentrate on cultivating their spoken english and if they give up pass them anyway. Not only this, but the students lives are going to be hellish there anyway so why not give them some joy before the harsh inescapable realities of life in China decend on them?


haha oh god this paragraph is a joke, right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ariadne



Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 960

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re passing everyone... hey, I AM part of the harsh reality of life. They are university students. The kids who rarely attend and don't do the work should NOT be getting the same grade as students who work and try and come to every class.


.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
basbas



Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is why universities in china are considered such a joke around the world...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Timer



Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Posts: 114
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

During my first class with any new group of students I always tell them my requirements for attendance. They can't be more than 10 minutes late and they need to have a good excuse if they miss a class. If anyone screws around like the girl mentioned in the op they would be warned that I will give them 0 if they continue. I have given some students 0 because they don't attend the class or consistently leave mid class without even telling me (and have no excuse for it).

Maybe their parents give a bribe to someone, I don't really care. Doesn't take any effort to put 0 instead of 60 or whatever is a pass, and it's going to make the student think, even if only a little. If the student has given me attitude about it I'll make sure to embarrass them in front of the rest of the class.


basbas wrote:
this is why universities in china are considered such a joke around the world...


No kidding. Makes me laugh at people saying foreigners are paid so much more than Chinese workers. You know we actually went to real universities, that should count for something, right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
thatsforsure



Joined: 11 Sep 2012
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milkweedma wrote:
Passing or failing and competition are are precepts of neo-liberal ideology and especially in China where systemic failure in any standard of education due to it being money driven and corrupt means failing anybody is a waste of your input. Concentrate on cultivating their spoken english and if they give up pass them anyway. Not only this, but the students lives are going to be hellish there anyway so why not give them some joy before the harsh inescapable realities of life in China decend on them?
How would it be a joke? It couldn't be truer. People who are "failing" students are taking themselves way too seriously.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> China (Job-related Posts Only) All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC