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official date of work-visit visa validity?
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teachr11



Joined: 23 Aug 2012
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: official date of work-visit visa validity? Reply with quote

Last spring, my employer told us that our work-visit visas (which, by the way, do NOT say anything about being illegal to work under) are valid from the day we set foot in the country. So, according to that date, I had my visa re-stamped 90 days after the day I entered KSA, not the date that the consulate in the U.S. issued the visa.

NOW, my employer is saying that these visas are valid from the date of issue in the home country. This has created an uproar amongst my colleagues, as now our 90 days of freedom (i.e. multiple entry) are reduced. It generally takes about 2 weeks for our company to arrange flights after the visas have been obtained. That means 2 weeks less of travel outside of KSA before being trapped here for the rest of the school year. Say it ain't so!

So what's the truth? Date of stepping foot in country, or date of issuance in the home country? Any ideas about how Saudi immigration handles validity dates at the border? I don't think my company knows what they are talking about, so I don't trust their answers.

And if you could refrain from mentioning how awful these employers who don't get people proper iqamas are, I would appreciate it. We already know our employers suck, but don't have the credentials to get work with more highly-esteemed companies. Thank you.
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wantok



Joined: 05 Jul 2012
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fount of regulations right from the camel's mouth: http://www.mofa.gov.sa/sites/mofaen/Pages/Default.aspx

Another fount of wisdom: https://www.moi.gov.sa/wps/portal/!ut/p/b1/04_SjzQ0NzQ0NjAyNDHRj9CPykssy0xPLMnMz0vMAfGjzOJNnQOcPS18jQ3dA0LNDYzczE28nM28LQy8QRoigQoMcABHA0L6g1Pz9MP1o_AqMzGGKnB2d_QwMfcxMLDwcTc18HT0CA2yDDQ2NnCEKcDjDj-P_NxU_dyoHItgT11HAIaiKsw!/dl4/d5/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SmtFL1o2X0dOVlMzR0gzMTBGSUUwSVFJSkozR1YzQ0w2/?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/MOI+Diwan/MOI+Home+Content/Home/Regulation/

A little prelim research before you appeal for opinions from secondary sources here might be advised!
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12292
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear wantok,

But aren't you a "secondary source here?" Very Happy

And look - you saved the poster all the trouble of doing the research him/herself.

Regards,
John
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wantok



Joined: 05 Jul 2012
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummm, "facilitator" pointing out primary sources posters can at leisure themselves peruse.

I'm well-reheased in OBE, BTW.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 3585
Location: Terra firma

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teachr11:

The physical visa affixed inside your passport doesn't include any wording about working in the Kingdom, although the Saudi Embassy's consulate page prominently states visit visas don't grant the holder the right to work or reside in the Kingdom. (You should have visit visa stamps in your passport as well). However, the Saudi labor law is clear about what constitutes employment of a foreigner under Article 33, which states: "A non-Saudi may not engage in or be allowed to engage in any work except after obtaining a work permit from the Ministry, according to the form prepared by it for this purpose." Therefore, and as stated ad nauseum within this forum, if you are on a business (work) visit visa, you are not a bona fide employee of the company sponsoring you; you're essentially brought over to provide services on behalf of the sponsor/company. That being said, you have no choice but to go with the flow with how your sponsoring company arranges flights---you have no say in the matter nor recourse under the law. This is why working for these companies stinks, and why they're constantly advertising for teachers (often to replace those who suddenly leave). And frankly, the visa date you really need to concern yourself with is the expiration date.
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Barbaros



Joined: 18 Aug 2012
Posts: 58
Location: North of France

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: official date of work-visit visa validity? Reply with quote

teachr11 wrote:

So what's the truth? Date of stepping foot in country, or date of issuance in the home country? Any ideas about how Saudi immigration handles validity dates at the border? I don't think my company knows what they are talking about, so I don't trust their answers.


Here is my interpretation of the validity of the entry work/business visa according to the Arabic text:

1. The validity of the entry visa is 3 months from the date of issue (you have 90 days to enter the Magic Kingdom).
2. The validity of your stay in the Magic Kingdom is 90 days from the date of entry stamp in your passport (assuming that your entry visa above is still valid).

Did not the entry visa in your passport have two dates, one for the validity of the visa (90 days), and the other for the allowed period of stay?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12292
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear wantok,

I can't decide which one OBE means:

What is OBE?

OBE is "Overcome By Events" or "Out of Body Experience" or "Order of the British Empire"

http://www.internetslang.com/OBE-meaning-definition.asp

Regards,
John
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wantok



Joined: 05 Jul 2012
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pardon the segue!

Number six: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=obe

BTW, nomad and teachr: The legit employment visa gets you through Arrivals only. It is attached to your iqama application upon arrival is a visa type that is applied for by the sponsor's initiative to the Ministry of LABOUR. Their officials vent the the sponsor for legit business enterprise registration.

The business visit visa is initiated by the sponsor's application to the Ministry of FOREIGN AFFAIRS.

Thus LABOUR's regulations are circumvented. The two Ministries don't communicate much, I guess.

Check the FOREIGN AFFAIRS website for further info about the types of visas those officials superintend.

It is the Ministry of INTERIOR that superintends iqama applications.

Have a close look at the Stickys, duh.

In summary:
1. LABOUR is for legit employment.
2. FOREIGN AFFAIRS is for temporary business or investment visits and pilgrimages and diplomats, etc. Think temporary, residency (iqama) prohibited.
3. INTERIOR is for iqamas, and they also handle Saudi passports. If you're caught with an illegal visa and don't have an iqama, that's INTERIOR's concern exclusively. (Maybe your embassy's also!)
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12085
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is ILLEGAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I for one will snitch on you given the opportunity !
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 3585
Location: Terra firma

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wantok wrote:
BTW, nomad and teachr: The legit employment visa gets you through Arrivals only. It is attached to your iqama application upon arrival is a visa type that is applied for by the sponsor's initiative to the Ministry of LABOUR.

I certainly don't need clarification. If you've read any of my posts over this past year, you would have noticed I'm very much aware that an employment visa leads to an iqama. In fact, I'm a direct hire who holds an iqama.
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Abdullah the Enforcer



Joined: 26 Aug 2012
Posts: 42
Location: In a hole

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Their officials vent the the sponsor for legit business enterprise registration.


Then, the willing victims vent here. Endlessly!

Abdullah sad.
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Anacita



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 25
Location: west coast, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is truly illegal to work on a work-visit visa, why do so many people do it successfully?

When I was in Riyadh recently, the supervisor of the PYP at KSU stated emphatically in a meeting of several teachers (both old and new) that it is entirely legal to teach in the PYP at KSU for up to one year on a work-visit visa and, she added, that if anyone tells you differently, they're wrong.

I do not have a dog in this race, as it were, since I'm not working in Saudi.
But I do wonder why companies such as ICEAT, SBC, AETG, etc bring many teachers into Riyadh on work-visit visas and pay them for teaching at KSU and PNU, for example, if it is illegal.
In other words, why are the companies allowed to hire the teachers, fly the teachers to Saudi, house them, transport them to campus, take them shopping, have them work in the PYPs? Why are the companies allowed to employ teachers on work-visit visas if it's illegal for them to do it?
Why does the Ministry of Foreign Affairs issue the work-visit visas if it's illegal for the teachers to work on them?
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Abdullah the Enforcer



Joined: 26 Aug 2012
Posts: 42
Location: In a hole

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
why are the companies allowed to hire the teachers, fly the teachers to Saudi, house them, transport them to campus, take them shopping, have them work in the PYPs? Why are the companies allowed to employ teachers on work-visit visas if it's illegal for them to do it?
Why does the Ministry of Foreign Affairs issue the work-visit visas if it's illegal for the teachers to work on them?


Greasy palms?
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wantok



Joined: 05 Jul 2012
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to take umbrage, nomad. Merely expanding on your remarks for a presumed newbie who is the OP of this thread.

And any other newbies who care not to search eslcafe archives which include your, nomad, seasoned interpretations of law.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12292
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear wantok,

My reading skills have clearly deteriorated. I read this as being directed to noman soul and teachr, rather than a "presumed newbie"

"BTW, nomad and teachr: The legit employment visa gets you through Arrivals only. It is attached to your iqama application upon arrival is a visa type that is applied for by the sponsor's initiative to the Ministry of LABOUR."

Guess it was the direct address that threw me off. Time for me to take a refresher course, it would seem Very Happy

Regards,
John
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