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Is this working situation legal?
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keteknakal



Joined: 18 Aug 2014
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:59 am    Post subject: Is this working situation legal? Reply with quote

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Last edited by keteknakal on Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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ExpatLuke



Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 421

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe if you have a WP application in process, the school is legally allowed to employ you. I really don't know one way or another though. One of the requirements of the WP is a work contract from your employer with your dates of employment on it. Once the WP is issued, the issue date is the same as the first day of work as stated on your contract.

EDIT: From the tone of this post and the other one you made about looking for a lawyer, it sounds like you are having trouble with your school, and you're attempting to find legal ammunition to blackmail them with...
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keteknakal



Joined: 18 Aug 2014
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by keteknakal on Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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ExpatLuke



Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 421

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't sound like teaching in SE Asia is going to suit you very well... Laughing
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keteknakal



Joined: 18 Aug 2014
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by keteknakal on Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a polite answer is that your question is not really that relevant to the realities of life here. Discussing RMIT, those kinds of jobs are not very reflective of what most expats end up with, and even the high end guys are not likely to land them in their first year or so. Asking about what is illegal, gawd. Come on. If you just do a cursory reading of the local newspaper and what they feel brave enough to print, then spend a bit of time reading forums, you have to realize that the reality is very far away from your cut and dried expectations. Not that your desire for clarity is a bad thing, but that is not the reality here.

About being well informed during negotiations, I think you can certainly try to research your employer, there are a few good ones out there. I think it is rare for a candidate to be so well qualified that he has the leverage in the negotiations. I suspect that very few can ask for and get anything beyond what the employer has in mind to begin with. Occasionally leverage will shift to a teacher already employed with the organization who has proven himself to be special, I think this is pretty rare, but it can happen.

Mostly you should just prepare for the worst and if it is better, then you have a pleasant surprise. I think it is a big mistake to believe in any one employer, though you may build trust over time after you see what the job is really like. To come over for one job and to need and expect that job to work is pretty shaky, in my opinion. Instead, if this landscape is right for you, you should know it, and teaching is something that may work for a while, may not work, but it is not the foundation of your life here, it is the icing on the cake which may turn rancid at any moment.

Hope you understand that folks are not really trying to be rude (though in real life, many or most long term expats seem to not like each other), we have some good guys here and we can always use some more good ones, mostly we have folks that are not right for the work and employers who only care about personal enrichment. It is heaven in some ways, and even the work can be fun and rewarding, but mostly it is a mess. When I first came over I was wondering about technical questions and legal type issues too. One of my most memorable lessons was from a VN when we were about to get into a secured area late at night. She said, "the gate means nothing". And turned out, she was right. Mostly, nothing means anything.
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keteknakal



Joined: 18 Aug 2014
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't asking about the realities of life here and frankly, the answers I've got are not really relevant to the realities of my question. Man, this place is completely useless.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem is, your question ignores the realities of life here, again, trying to answer in a polite way. People do not want to come out and say how laws, regulations, rules and business principles are routinely ignored or whatever the reality might be. I understand you may not like the response you are getting, I do apologize for any that may seem insulting. To then can the site as useless is probably not going to improve your future results. You say you have been in Asia for a while. You know what it is like. These guys do not operate the way your OP implies. It is their sandbox. If you can accept the cat poop in it, then you can play.

Actually, this site has been of great value to me. No way would I say it is useless. I would say that the realities are not always what I would like, but I have to accept that every day as part of the price I pay for living here.


Last edited by mark_in_saigon on Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ExpatLuke



Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 421

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keteknakal wrote:
Man, this place is completely useless.


As useless as the VN lawyers you were trying to talk to? As useless as the list of legal references that was provided in another thread? Sorry, but if you're not finding the answers you're looking for, it's probably a good indication that you're asking the wrong questions.

This is why I previously said it doesn't seem like SE Asia will suit you very well. If you're asking these questions, it implies you have no understanding how day to day life is here.

To be very blunt: No one can answer your questions, because no one is else is clueless enough to ask.
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TRH



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 201
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keteknakal wrote:
I wasn't asking about the realities of life here and frankly, the answers I've got are not really relevant to the realities of my question.
I guess that Luke and Mark were deceived into talking about reality rather that utopia so he took is ball home and said we can't play with it. Rolling Eyes I guess the answer he was looking for was simply "No, it isn't." It's sort of like asking if it is legal to drive over 55 MPH on the US Interstate while everyone is passing you doing 75.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's sort of like asking if it is legal to drive over 55 MPH on the US Interstate while everyone is passing you doing 75.


Amen.

It is very common for first time posters to ask questions that seem to just totally ignore the reality of life here.

How much can I save every month if I teach English in VN?

Honestly, most of the important stuff has been answered. This is a great site, just read through it for a few hours and you will have a very good feel for all the common questions as well as the meaningful answers that can be posited. For those of you looking for precision, certainty, legal clarity, safety, cleanliness, professionalism, courtesy, fairness, predictability, and The never ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way, this is probably not the place for you.
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Prof.Gringo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2068
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:
Quote:
It's sort of like asking if it is legal to drive over 55 MPH on the US Interstate while everyone is passing you doing 75.


Amen.

It is very common for first time posters to ask questions that seem to just totally ignore the reality of life here.

How much can I save every month if I teach English in VN?

Honestly, most of the important stuff has been answered. This is a great site, just read through it for a few hours and you will have a very good feel for all the common questions as well as the meaningful answers that can be posited. For those of you looking for precision, certainty, legal clarity, safety, cleanliness, professionalism, courtesy, fairness, predictability, and The never ending battle for truth, justice, and the American way, this is probably not the place for you.


Laughing ROFL Laughing
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spycatcher reincarnated



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 231

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a little out of touch, but my understanding of the legal situation is as follows:

Up until the new law came out on 1 November 2013 and subsequent decrees followed, the situation was as follows:

The law did not allow for foreigners to work for 3 months before getting their work permits, but the reality on the ground was that this was regarded as allowed and it was not much of an issue if it took longer as long as an employer could show they were moving towards getting the work permit.

I believe that the majority of small employers totally ignored work permits altogether.

As of 1 November 2013 the new law made it more clear that this 3 month period did not apply. I am not sure what is currently happening at present, but have heard the following: government officials accept that the new law is unworkable and whereas is it politically difficult for them to say anything against it they can easily ignore it. Heard that certain institutions such as RMIT have been told that they do not have to follow the law to the letter. Heard that Hanoi is a lot stricter than HCMC on this new law and heard that a school in Hanoi is trying to petition against it.

As many posters have pointed out already, what is law does not always matter. There was a law saying that not more than 3% of your staff could be foreigners and under no conditions could you employ more than 50 foreigners. This law was on the books for a few years, but was totally ignored as it was agreed this was impracticable.

Didn't see it in the new law, but before Nov 13 it was the employer who could be punished if an employer didn't have a work permit (not sure if this was ever enforced). The government was saying that under the new law it would be the employee who could be punished and not the company, but as I have said, I didn't see anything about this in the new law.
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calidan



Joined: 06 Aug 2014
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to say, as a noob here, I appreciate the information on this forum, particularly from the likes of seasoned members, such as Mark and Luke (and others, of course). I'm sure I've asked -- or will ask -- questions that have been answered before, but I welcome getting a smack-down on the Internet, which doesn't happen enough, in my opinion. That's why I quit Facebook -- all you can do is "Like" somebody's post, and if you tell them they're being an insufferable, narcissistic douche, somehow you're the bad guy. I also try to contribute some information where I can instead of just take, take, taking all the time. The OP's sense of entitlement is disturbing.

At any rate, keep up the good work, gentlemen! Very Happy
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What an interesting post. I would say that the "smack down" is really unnecessary, but it seems to be a standard form of behavior at this point. Sometimes guys bring it on themselves if they get it. However, it is my belief that our default tone should be courtesy and helpfulness. I would hope that as teachers, that is the way we conduct ourselves normally, and I suspect that those who delight in putting others down do not make the best teachers. Still, I also think that it is clear that many or most expats do not like each other. This can be for a variety of reasons, but it is indeed quite noticeable. I imagine a lot of the animosity we see in these threads is a manifestation of this phenomenon. I do understand, but I do not know why expats who do not like other expats even bother to post. If you do not like your fellow westerner, why then mingle with him or her online? It does take a lot of self control sometimes to not be drawn into petty carping when that seems to be the first choice of how to respond to each other.

Older guys like myself remember when the internet first started. It was amazing to see the difference. Nothing but well educated, courteous people sharing information in a pleasant atmosphere. It did not last for long. Now, most places where people can post turn into an immediate hate fest. Makes the comments not worth reading, in my opinion. Dave's does a pretty good job of keeping it somewhat civil, far better than most sites.

One of the things all of us should do to improve the site is to use threads that relate to what is being discussed. I think this one was a work permit thread, (right?), and if the OP had done a bit of research, he would likely have found his questions answered to the extent they can be answered. Of course, as we know, there are no firm answers to most of these questions here, the answer can change depending on multiple factors which cannot be precisely quantified. As most of these points have been discussed, it creates great efficiencies for the readers and the posters to be able to work off of an existing thread rather than trying to repeat the info, or perhaps look up the thread and link it for the poster. Even then, the new thread tends to continue, so the answers get spread out all over the site, and so the information becomes harder to find rather than easier.
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