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Concerning pay trends

 
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toiyeuthitmeo



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 211

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:55 am    Post subject: Concerning pay trends Reply with quote

So I've got mates working at a few big name schools and have gained a kind of concerning picture about pay. If anyone on the inside at these places has info to the contrary, by all means, chime in. The big picture I'm getting from this is that these schools are surely looking at what each other are getting away with in terms of cost cutting in salary, and copying each other. I don't know what the work force can do to influence these trends--probably nothing-- but thought you guys might like to hear about it.

RMIT- Will soon require the Educator (the second tier, higher paid teacher role) to have an MA. Current Educators who lack an MA will take a pay cut. Teachers without an MA or DELTA will move to a new "lower pay scale." A DELTA will get you on a higher pay scale.

ILA- Eliminated pay incentive for DELTA holders

ACET- Has removed pay incentive for DELTA holders

WALL STREET- Has been headhunting DOSs and AMs from established schools who are making in excess of 70 million per month, and having the balls to offer them 40 million guaranteed with "10-30 million monthly performance incentive possible)
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mushroom_season



Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things are flat real flat. There is collusion with the big name schools to keep wages down. No doubt about it. Best to make your earnings like a sponge cream cake. What keeps you alive is the sponge. What makes it worthwhile is the cream. So mix privates in with the official income to make life work for you.
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skarper



Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disturbing but hardly a new trend.

Teachers are underpaid already - this leads to a lack of high calibre applicants for jobs and a wastage of the better, experienced teachers who cannot remain in the industry long term.

Basic wage for a CELTA qualified teacher should be about 3000USD a month for a 20 hour work week. DELTA/Dip qualified should get about 4000. Low level management/senior teachers should be on 5000 and should all have Dips.

This is for basic language school work. If you want people to teach IELTS or some special field within EFL then it ought to cost 500-1000 a month more.

Senior management should be on about 6000 a month.

The money IS there but is siphoned off by the school owners. Such is capitalism.

With the global economic situation - FAR FAR worse than anything you will see on the news - there is always a supply of desperate new blood willing to work for peanuts. In many industries people start out as interns and are not paid at all!

If only we could set up teacher owned cooperatives and cut these parasites out of the loop. Students would benefit and teachers would at last have the freedom and security to innovate and develop.

I know you'd have some really bad scam schools set up, but we do already.

What we don't have is anywhere we can honestly recommend to a Vietnamese student as high quality and value for money.
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1st Sgt Welsh



Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 543
Location: Salalah, Oman

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Concerning pay trends Reply with quote

toiyeuthitmeo wrote:

RMIT- Will soon require the Educator (the second tier, higher paid teacher role) to have an MA. Current Educators who lack an MA will take a pay cut. Teachers without an MA or DELTA will move to a new "lower pay scale." A DELTA will get you on a higher pay scale


Although I'm a bit out of the loop now (I've moved to the Gulf), that's pretty much what I've heard too, but I don't know anything about it becoming mandatory for 'educators' to have MAs or DELTAs. Indeed, my understanding is that the old three-tier pay system ('instructor', 'educator' and 'coordinator') is going out the window and there will be many more pay scales (about eighteen) based on academic qualifications. They may choose to keep the old titles, but pay will be determined by academic qualifications and no distinction will be made for length of service, experience or performance.

When I was at RMIT, I was never a fan of the discrepancy in pay between 'educator' and 'instructor' (although I never had a problem with the benefits given to any of the 'coordinators') simply because I knew of too many cases where some of the 'instructors' were outperforming some of the 'educators' and receiving a lot less money. There are many excellent 'educators' at RMIT though and I'm not talking about them. Whilst I believe that reform was necessary for the sake of fairness, from what I've heard, the new system is simply a cost-cutting measure and I couldn't agree less with not having pay based on experience, service and performance.

My understanding is that the teachers who were 'instructors' under the old system with DELTAs/MAs will be slightly better off, but, their pay going up is unusual. However, I could be wrong on this and I'm just reporting what I've heard on the grapevine. Most teachers will be getting a slight to significant pay cut. An 'educator' with a DELTA/MA is going to be much worse off and the 'level coordinators' will be dramatically worse off and it is planned that their roles will be assumed by 'educators' who will be teaching part-time. Basically, the higher on the totem poll you are, the worse the news is. Of course, RMIT will be honouring their existing contracts and its when those contracts expire will be the time when the bite kicks in.

I have a lot of friends at RMIT so, obviously, I'm saddened by the news. In regards to whether the decisions made are justified, I guess you'd have to have access to the books, (which of course I don't), to know the full picture. Nonetheless, I anticipate RMIT will be losing some very good people over the coming months or year. Like I said, some reform, IMHO, was overdue and I guess time will tell whether this was overall a good decision for the university, but, I personally doubt it. RMIT is, hands down, the most successful Australian university operating abroad and one of the best Western universities operating in foreign lands. Needless to say, much of that success has been due to its ability to attract quality staff to its English Department and, whilst some tinkering aimed at improvements could be made, you don't overhaul and fix something when it isn't broken. But, like I said, I guess time will tell how things unravel and I don't want to sound too pessimistic as my experiences at RMIT, when I was working there, were extremely positive and, as far as employers go, they were fantastic.
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I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 384

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Concerning pay trends Reply with quote

toiyeuthitmeo wrote:
RMIT- Will soon require the Educator (the second tier, higher paid teacher role) to have an MA. Current Educators who lack an MA will take a pay cut. Teachers without an MA or DELTA will move to a new "lower pay scale." A DELTA will get you on a higher pay scale.

I was under the impression that it was always the official policy that educators were masters educated. I know someone who had an interview a few weeks ago (already an instructor) who's in the middle of his masters, so partial completion is presumably considered too. I also always thought that the educator job was actually a different job entirely, but apparently not? I thought instructors were standard ESL teachers, whereas educators were actually teaching the degree programmes?

This has long been the trend at ILA. When they switched from dollar to VND contracts, everyone had a higher hourly rate except the top two scales, which included DELTA teachers. Take away the bonuses for contract completion and resigning, and it was a pay cut in real terms. ILA are simply not interested in highly qualified teachers, unless they're willing to go into management. And they frequently struggle to fill their managerial position with qualified candidates too, with some managers being hired before they finish their DELTA. They pay lip service to wanting to keep experienced teachers, but everything the management does gets rids of any incentive for teachers to stay there longer than a couple of years, assuming they're interested in teaching rather than management.

The British Council seem to be making a bit of a push to get more teachers DELTA trained though, and have started running a Trinity Diploma course every year for free. But they don't offer a huge increase in salary for actually having one. But I guess they know they're going to be the main beneficiaries of that, even if people go overseas, because chances are they'll stay in the company. This is probably why ILA stopped funding the CELTYL extension (I think they still offer a small discount), because while it was good to have teachers qualified in it, they knew they didn't have the pay structure to hang onto them. So they were basically paying to train teachers for other schools.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, the higher end is not moving up, in fact, generally, it is falling back.

I think this is really a pull from the glut of people trying to teach. Some are decent enough, most are just cannon fodder, but a lot of those young ones sure would look good if they dressed up. As so many of these “schools” rate appearance first, this means the low end is well served. Plus, we have some fairly professional nominal speakers of English as well, adding to the supply. Some of those may be better than our western backpackers and may be willing to work for 10 or less. I have no idea what the bottom is now, maybe it is free, we have some kids who pay to get the opportunity to volunteer, right?

At the low end and the middle, schools often do not know or care who is good. They can hire based on appearance, youth, and willingness to put up with difficult conditions (and low pay). Of course, we should all consider how most VN organizations hire for most jobs. So, naturally many of the employers we deal with share that cultural mindset.

From day one, I never expected this place to pay for my life here. I just took things that worked well, and moved on when they quit working. I have never taken a single dong from VN back to the west, and never intend to (well, maybe a few as souvenirs). Even though I am doing nicely here financially and have a low cost structure, I have no problem running through all my VN income. I could be a bit more careful, but I am not going crazy by any means.

I would not at all suggest this place for the teaching experience or for the income. You may survive, more likely your income will not cover any kind of credible lifestyle here for a year or two, and maybe never. Still, this can be a great place to live. But it is best to approach this like the VN themselves often do. Unless you have some great money making machine here (and teaching is not it), then make your fortune in the west and come back here to enjoy it. Your bucks sure go farther here IF you can get over the hump, say having 1,500 a month or so coming in rain or shine. Not from here, from there, wherever there is for you. Then, whatever you get from here, live it up, you are golden. Leave the Mickey Mouse schools for those gullible enough to work them. Get out there and have some fun, this deal is not going to last forever.
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