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Positive things about Vietnam
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I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 367

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:
We do thank you for the great contributions you made to the VN scene, and the VN threads. I am sure the Korea/Japan guys are eager for you to move over to your new home.

Ironic choice of country for someone criticising Vietnam for letting any native speaker teach. Sure, you can get around the regulations in Vietnam (as you can in Western Europe), but in Japan and Korea, there are no regulations. Any native speaker with a degree (no need to be relevant) and a pulse can teach in government schools. In Vietnam, you at least need some teaching credentials if you want to do it legally.
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 393
Location: off the radar

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLeducator wrote:
mark_in_saigon wrote:
The average less qualified "teacher" indeed only lasts about 3 months on any one job, and maybe six months in the country.


I know a person who has been there for about three months now with no work visa. Yet he has a bank account and a good paying job. You're saying he will be out of the country in three more months? I have my doubts. He's having too much fun over there. Cool


Is this person you're talking about, yourself? Wink

How much is this "good paying job"?

**enter halfwit crying out "Paradise. Paradise"**

I hope you've got a good university job lined up in Korea; a country full of young Americans as that's what the Koreans want. The ability to teach in secondary.

In regards to a lot of jobs in Vietnam, having any old white face will do and I understand your cynicism; teaching here is a joke but the lifestyle is quite attractive; that's until the fun police start telling you to go home by 11.30pm like some kind of overprotective parent.
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EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurtz wrote:
Is this person you're talking about, yourself?


Nope. A friend.

kurtz wrote:
How much is this "good paying job"?


That's personal.

kurtz wrote:
I hope you've got a good university job lined up in Korea; a country full of young Americans as that's what the Koreans want.


Nothing lined up yet. I'm still deciding if it will be Japan or SK.

kurtz wrote:
teaching here is a joke but the lifestyle is quite attractive


The lifestyle? The only "lifestyle" I saw was "teachers" drunk and/or high while taking TONS of Viagra. Yeah, what a lifestyle and what professionalism. Rolling Eyes
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EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a professional and that is why I did not like HCMC. It seems like a place for those with no teaching skills nor credentials. A great place for party types who use a lot of....well, I won't say it here.

I'm sure Japan and/or SK will be much more professional.
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 393
Location: off the radar

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLeducator wrote:
I am a professional and that is why I did not like HCMC. It seems like a place for those with no teaching skills nor credentials. A great place for party types who use a lot of....well, I won't say it here.

I'm sure Japan and/or SK will be much more professional.


If you hang out in scummy places, that is what you'll find, scum. Well, that's a little harsh. I don't mind the odd session in a bia hoi. I was referring to the fact I can work basically part-time and enjoy a lot of time to read, study, exercise and indulge in a hobby or two. I hope that's a lifestyle that is up to your lofty standards.

If you're truly a professional, you should have found a job commensurate with your qualifications and experience in HCM. I suspect that you just turned up one day, asked around for some work like the rest of the rabble

Rolling Eyes
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TRH



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 186
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject: How soon Reply with quote

Any one care to make bets about how soon this thread is locked?
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deadlift



Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 257

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not long I'd say, which is a shame, because this could and should have been a productive thread. We'll just have to try again once this one is nuked.

EFLeducator claimed to be someone "SERIOUS about TEFLing and has serious qualifications like I do, well let's just say HCMC is a joke", but then complains about teachers with "no teaching skills nor credentials".

This doesn't compute- if a teacher is so professional and well-qualified, why are they hanging around with such losers, rather than working at RMIT, ACET, BC, or even ILA / Apollo, all of which require at least basic credentials and some of which require and facilitate work permits?

When posters make these kinds of complaints about teaching in Vietnam, it says as much about them and their employability as it does about the teaching job market here.
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kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 393
Location: off the radar

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deadlift wrote:
Not long I'd say, which is a shame, because this could and should have been a productive thread. We'll just have to try again once this one is nuked.

EFLeducator claimed to be someone "SERIOUS about TEFLing and has serious qualifications like I do, well let's just say HCMC is a joke", but then complains about teachers with "no teaching skills nor credentials".

This doesn't compute- if a teacher is so professional and well-qualified, why are they hanging around with such losers, rather than working at RMIT, ACET, BC, or even ILA / Apollo, all of which require at least basic credentials and some of which require and facilitate work permits?

When posters make these kinds of complaints about teaching in Vietnam, it says as much about them and their employability as it does about the teaching job market here.


Hear hear.

You'll notice when asked about EFLEds friend's salary, a so-called 3rd party with no name or anything, the answer was, "that's personal". Now why is that so if he isn't talking about himself?

People are attacking the message, not the messenger which I believe is within the rules here.

Even the language mills which are full of 20-somethings straight off the CELTA treadmill are full of teachers with degrees and a teaching certificate. Maybe not exactly lofty standards but regardless, people who are qualified to be here. Not sure who our high-class, highly qualified and educated friend has been hanging out with.
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mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 763

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we have seen enough. PhD candidate, garbled English, doesn't know the difference between a visa and a work permit, dissing the nation and the expat community generally without discrimination. Looks to me like one of the never ending recycled guys who wants to set the record for number of stakes driven thru his heart. I think we should all welcome him to his new home in Korea or Japan and thank him for his enlightenment, which I think has pretty much run its course. Let him shine the way forward over there. They need you, they want you, you are one of them now. Go young Luke Skywalker, may the force be with you! Enough already.
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EFLeducator



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Positive things about Vietnam:

1. Alcohol is everywhere and cheap.

2. Friendly people.

3. Women love tall beautiful Americans. Cool

4. Not all BUT a LOT of the schools WILL hire you even if you have no WORK permit.

5. You can open a bank account with only a tourist visa.

6. You can go to work with a hangover and not get fired.

I LOVED Vietnam!! But I prefer DEVELOPED, 1ST WORLD countries.

Go to nam newbies! Enjoy your experience!!!! Laughing
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Jbhughes



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. VN students by and large are reasonably respectful, interested in you, and polite. (sorry Sigmoid, I really can't agree with the sharp comment).

2. I don't think the humble motorcycle has been mentioned. Considering that you can be on the road for potentially less than 600GBP, with a new, reliable, insured, vehicle with a two-year warranty, transport costs are pretty cheap. Not to mention getting at least 100mpg (and that gallon costing about 3GBP). Further still there is the immense enjoyment that some get from the hobby in general: restoring older bikes, touring around the country, or just jumping on the bike and going for a zooom!

3. Relative freedom. Yes, there are various constraints, but when you consider the whole picture, if you decide to work less than about 18 contact hours a week and organise your time well (or work somewhere were lesson planning is optional, lol!) then you can have quite a lot of free time and can largely do what you want with it.

4. Access to quite a few different countries to travel to.
Although you may spend some savings from home, there is the whole of South East Asia to explore, then if you get bored with that, then the rest of Asia and even Aussieland is a probably worth heading to if you're from North America or Europe.

5. Safety. There's a lot of nasty ripping off, scamming and even conning going on, but for the most part this is completely non-violent. Violent crime directed at foreign people is surely a very low figure compared to the potential for being the victim of violent crimes involved with knife-crime in the UK and gun crime in the gooood ol' gun totin' US of A. Of course, motorbikes aren't all that safe either...

6. The feeling of being valued and wanted. I know that it can be a bit narcissistic to think along these lines, but English is needed here. I also accept that many school owners see the potential to make money and to abuse when they see a foreigner, but sts and parents often seem to appreciate the fact that we are here. Sometimes we're made to feel a little 'special', sometimes it's just that overly direct question of 'Why are you here?!'
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TRH



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 186
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLeducator wrote:

3. Women love tall beautiful Americans. Cool

4. Not all BUT a LOT of the schools WILL hire you even if you have no WORK permit.

Go to nam newbies! Enjoy your experience!!!! Laughing
My observations: (in a different order) Please correct me if I am factually wrong.

4.) I am certainly no expert on work permits having been here only four months and not being a holder of one myself, but isn't a work permit something you get as a result of holding a job and not a prerequisite to being hired? The permit may technically be required of all of us, but as I see it the main advantage to the holder is the ability to obtain a two year visa. If one can obtain a visa through some other reasonably convenient means then the permit is not practically necessary. If there is a technical violation, it falls on the employer too. This would be the case as reported in the press where some industries have employed Chinese labor because it is actually cheaper than Vietnamese. In these cases employers are sanctioned. Also I have read on other threads of people who object to the school holding the permit. If the teacher has already used the permit to obtain the two year visa then why worry? If the permit is tied to the actual contract of employment, then if that employment ends isn't the work permit null and void?

If my understanding is generally correct then EFLeducator's is wrong. In fact no school should hire you because you have a work permit but should get you a permit because they have hired you. He has the entire sequence wrong, No?

3.) I am short for an American and 20 pounds overweight but my wife loves me. Razz Also what American uses the term "beautiful" when referring to males?

Final) I have very civilly discussed this with another contributor but I still consider "nam" an offensive term. I think this may because my perspective is as a 1969 to 1972 US Army veteran. At that time the term was used by fellow GI's in a very negative context and tone.
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I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 367

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jbhughes wrote:
5. Safety. There's a lot of nasty ripping off, scamming and even conning going on, but for the most part this is completely non-violent. Violent crime directed at foreign people is surely a very low figure compared to the potential for being the victim of violent crimes involved with knife-crime in the UK and gun crime in the gooood ol' gun totin' US of A. Of course, motorbikes aren't all that safe either...


I don't know about this. I know anecdotal evidence isn't exactly reliable on these matters, (but then I can't say I trust crime statistics in Vietnam either), but judging by the number of friends that have been victims of crime, I can't believe that it's less likely in Vietnam. Drunk Vietnamese men are certainly less likely to be violent, which is a major positive. But things like bag snatching (not technically a violent crime, but more likely to hurt you than being mugged at knife point) are far more likely and your foreigner status singles you out as a good target, especially if you're female. I can't do a direct comparison, because I've never lived in the city in the UK, but I can't imagine that if I spent 2 years in London, almost everyone I knew would become a victim of crime.

Saigon isn't the most dangerous city in the world, but I do always cringe a bit when I see it described as having a low crime rate and being pretty safe. It's not exactly Japan or Singapore.

But this is a thread of positive, so I'd better balance that out.

I like how Saigon is open 24 hours. I guess you could say the same for most major cities, but you really can get a good cooked meal at 4 in the morning. I also like how you can get anything delivered for a very small amount of money. The only thing that's missing is someone combining the two. Why is there no 24 hour food delivery?
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Jbhughes



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm With Stupid wrote:
Jbhughes wrote:
5. Safety. There's a lot of nasty ripping off, scamming and even conning going on, but for the most part this is completely non-violent. Violent crime directed at foreign people is surely a very low figure compared to the potential for being the victim of violent crimes involved with knife-crime in the UK and gun crime in the gooood ol' gun totin' US of A. Of course, motorbikes aren't all that safe either...


I don't know about this. I know anecdotal evidence isn't exactly reliable on these matters, (but then I can't say I trust crime statistics in Vietnam either), but judging by the number of friends that have been victims of crime, I can't believe that it's less likely in Vietnam. Drunk Vietnamese men are certainly less likely to be violent, which is a major positive. But things like bag snatching (not technically a violent crime, but more likely to hurt you than being mugged at knife point) are far more likely and your foreigner status singles you out as a good target, especially if you're female. I can't do a direct comparison, because I've never lived in the city in the UK, but I can't imagine that if I spent 2 years in London, almost everyone I knew would become a victim of crime.

Saigon isn't the most dangerous city in the world, but I do always cringe a bit when I see it described as having a low crime rate and being pretty safe. It's not exactly Japan or Singapore.

But this is a thread of positive, so I'd better balance that out.

I like how Saigon is open 24 hours. I guess you could say the same for most major cities, but you really can get a good cooked meal at 4 in the morning. I also like how you can get anything delivered for a very small amount of money. The only thing that's missing is someone combining the two. Why is there no 24 hour food delivery?


That's interesting and something I hadn't really thought about when I wrote my post, in all honesty.

When I wrote the post, I was more considering the country of Vietnam as a whole, rather than one particular area in Saigon. I don't think even you would go so far as to say that it's much of a problem throughout the rest of Vietnam, would you? I can't say it's something I've heard much of in the 3(4 if you count a two-month stint in Hanoi) cities in Vietnam that I've lived in.

I do agree that foreigners are a target, but I don't think many are out to commit violent crimes to foreigners in general (outside of what you've mentioned around the streets of Pham Ngu Lao). I would say that overall, Vietnam is a very safe place for foreigners.

Having said that, what % of the expat population in Vietnam lives and works within a few mile square block situated around the Pham? It's probably quite a large number of all of us that frequent that area and as such your point does grow a lot in validity. Furthermore, any newcomer is almost certainly going to be starting out right there in some dive in the alleys between Pham Ngu Lao and Bui Vien and as such should take heed of your warnings. Personally I feel that what they find there is about as Vietnam as KFC is, but that's probably for another thread!
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VietCanada



Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the weather, the low cost of living, the independence, the easy going lifestyle. The women are pretty sexy too.

I've enjoyed my time here for the most part. I liked Korea better except for the fact that the work permits and visas are tied to that one year contract and the process starts all over again. Here I can just keep on going in relative comfort.

In Tokyo I quickly tired of their toilets, persistent kerosene aroma and high cost of living.

Having spent a few years on the Korean boards I really think that the comments here are much more balanced. People always gripe about their jobs. They are much more likely to complain than praise without motivation IMHO. No news is good news.

I think this board is pretty balanced considering my years of experience on the Korean boards.
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