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Ivan Denisovich 50 years on
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9040
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apart from writing on the wrong thread, I have to question what you are trying to achieve here? In any case, see my contribution on the appropriate thread - Colonial War.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=99406&start=30
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geaaronson



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 948
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am trying to get you to see the illogic of your thinking.

Quote:
Quote:
With regard to the complexities of libel and slander, consider that TV stations in breach of whatever defamation laws are applicable are normally sued for libel, not slander. This is so even though the offending comments were spoken on air. Not such a simple written/oral distinction as it may seem at first, eh?
Sasha

TV stations are oral communicators. Yes,`when they defame someone orally on TV it is not only slander but libelous. But we are not talking about oral communication.

We are talking about written communication. And written communication is always libelous, not slanderous as you claimed. And yes, it is defamatory.

Below is an example of the illogic of your thinking.

A cat is a mammal.
A dog is a mammal.
A cat is not a dog.

Yet that is exactly how you are thinking through this issue of defamation, libel and slander.

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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9040
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geaaronson

Please post on the appropriate thread. Posting here is illogical. Follow the link above. What do you need, a court order?
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geaaronson



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 948
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I continued to write on this thread as you asked me a question as to why I am writing on this thread. I answered on this thread.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9040
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell it to the judge!

Let's go back to the original topic of this thread. The posts become more interesting then.
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geaaronson



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 948
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To you it is more interesting. I doubt that there are many interested in the novel.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9040
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, 'tis the topic of this thread. No one is under any obligation to contribute to it. But if they do post, then it is more interesting when the content of their posts relates directly to the topic. For example, the comparisons and contrasts with other camp literature and Socialist writers make for more engaging dialogue than anything else here.
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Qaaolchoura



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 539
Location: 21 miles from the Syrian border

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never read the novel, but I'll add it to my list of great Russian literature I need to read. (Despite your protestations, I can tell that you secretly admire it Sasha.)

geaaronson: the argument you've been trying to have is very boring, and I don't see the point. Even if you were right, your argument would be pointless, since it stems from your attempt at playing "gotcha" over a minor semantic quibble. Why don't you stop digging, brush yourself off, and bow nicely out?

~Q
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9040
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read it if you must. However, do not get caught in possession of a copy. The authorities will add you to the list of possible cosmopolitan subversives.

Reading it, be aware of its highly 'novelistic' structure. The story ends as it starts, with the clanging of the iron rail by the guard. There are regular repeated actions, such as smoking a cigarette, which form an almost architectural plan underlying all else - if a cigarette was not smoked at its appointed time, you'd feel the need to smoke one yourself. The movement of the sun is tracked regularly too, to mark the passage of the day of course, but it also provides a lovely vignette of Ivan not understanding the concept of daylight-saving-time and thus believes that Soviet power is so great it can alter the position of the sun in the sky by decree.

Ivan is on one level a linking device which allows the reader to glimpse all the other personages, and see their essence. The sick-bay orderly/poet writing freer than he had ever done before; the Baptist who stands for idealism, the philosophers debating the merits of Eisenstein's films, juxtaposed like The School of Athens, one pointing to the sky, the other to the earth. Kh-123's number shows us where he stands logically.

Ah, the list goes on. Find out for yourself how skilled in the cunning art of destabilisation is the dissident...
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12353
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the book when it first came out, in English, in 1963. I can still recall the deep impression it made upon me.

I read much of Solzhenitsyn's later work, as well, but none of those books had quite as strong an impact on me.

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9040
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

Yes, many people remark on how his later books didn't re-create the shock of Ivan. But, it would be hard to repeat, would it not?

In any case, In the First Circle is regularly seized by my secret police, so maybe have a read of that if you haven't already done so.


Sasha
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12165
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those who have compared Solzhenitsyn favourably to Tolstoy, Gogol and Dostoyevsky are clearly in error. An interesting writer but not one of the greats !
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3135

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
In America, you can always find a party.
In Soviet Union, Party always find you!


What a country!

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12165
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try this Old Bolshevik. You might be surprised

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Zamyatin
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9040
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no 'you' or 'me'! There is only WE
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