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nenna-978



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 30
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks God for the lesson plans Laughing
By the way, in my country the Indirect speech is taught in primary schools, and John please be nice and polite as you used to be before Very Happy
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Augustus



Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for all your help!!

TIR - I will definitely invest in the book you suggest. Is there any others which could be helpful, neigher my local library site nor Amaxon is that helpful when I search under the term grammar they all claim to teach everything one needs to know!

I'm still a little confused over the not vs don't.

I found a video which went over all the ways in which don't should and shouldn't be used but not is a over used word and searching using goggle (spelling mistake intended as I don't want this forum coming up every time someone searches)

I know its wrong but getting the reasoning down is harder.

Augustus
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 867
Location: the world

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Augustus, I've thought it over and am removing my post from earlier because I feel I really shouldn't help you too much at this stage. It might not be good for you.

Nevertheless, I'll point out that the above are examples of the modal verb in action in a sentence: (should + might)
I (subject) + should (modal verb) + not (negative) + help (main verb)

When you've done some more study on your own, perhaps you can give further examples with your own analysis if you want people to check them.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 2730
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'I値l give you a ring when I'll arrive' - this is an instance where Swan for one is explicit and useful: he has a bit (entry 556 in the Second edition) entitled 'Tense simplification in subordinate clauses'. Unfortunately English is a language with tense, but while it has it, it would be counterproductive to lose the meaning-differences by making the two clauses the same tense. Variation is functional, and key. Structural Linguistics 101 stuff.

We can see similar considerations at work in the "coat whereabouts" sentence. (NB: it doesn't matter whether that sentence ends in an is or a was, as we can't tell from the context whether it's been moved, and a was wouldn't necessarily convey that it had been). The change in the word order of these embedded reported~indirect questions helps processing by avoiding (un)functional reduplication - something which is easier to see and appreciate in examples with "two" questions vying for inversion and do-support, as in ?Do you know when does the next train leave?, which should either be Do you know when the next train leaves?, or When does the next train leave? (the latter especially could be softened simply by starting with Excuse me LOL).

By the way, 'be' when used all by itself is usually called the copula. It has the function more or less of an equals sign. When used as a helping verb (e.g. to form progressive constructions) it is a "mere" auxiliary (or so they say Very Happy).

'I come from a big city on the coast' - The speaker decided to become less vague and mysterious, and helpfully added 'It's called New York - maybe you've heard of it?' Laughing

'Many guests died in the fire but John could escape. Correction: Many guests died in the fire but John escaped. Why: Could is the wrong word here as it expresses that its possible to do something but the sentence makes it clear that the action (escaping) was completed so we would use in the past' - I'd expand that last part somewhat: 'so we would simply use escape without could preceding it, i.e. just escaped by itself'. The essential point is that modals aren't committed to the "actuality" of an event (although if the example were something like 'The prisoner would [=would quite often] escape', that's a somewhat different matter). More about modals here:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/teacher/viewtopic.php?p=44082#44082

'I知 sorry, I知 not agree with you' - 'agree' is a verb, and requires the support of the auxiliary 'do' in this context, i.e. to make the negation. (NB: The issue of be + ing, i.e. Present progressive, would be a moot point here, as this doesn't seem a verb suited to progressive aspect. See also my comments about non-progressive verb-senses on your 'Reflecting...' thread. (Note however examples like 'He's always disagreeing with everyone')).

Regarding the value of explicit grammar knowledge, let's liken it to doing push-ups at home - it's not so you can then drop and give your class 50, but rather to help ensure that you don't drop full-stop (from a grammar-induced panic attack), and to give you a feeling of general fitness and well-being, so you can safely and confidently get on with other activities.

Sasha wrote:
Yet how much of what we really know explicitly of even our own language is a huge question. A classic example could be in use of articles. If anybody really thinks they know how they truly work...

Peter Master's research on the little blighters has given me the most hope LOL. He contributed a good paper to the following book (CUP's 1994 Perspectives on Pedagogical Grammar, edited by Terence Odlin): http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TbI8AdapFNAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:12 am; edited 2 times in total
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Augustus



Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank again for all the help. This is the last three I need to do before I can finally send it!! Comments welcome. I'm very relieved as I've been worried as I need this place a great deal and they have been pushing for me to return it for awhile, the opening evening is soon.

Thanks for your input Fluffy Hamster. I've tried to interpret it as best I can ... its not easy getting the lingo down so that it makes sense when analysing the right and wrongs of sentences.

Artemisia - I was under the impression that's exactly what I did, include the task with my own analysis for many of them. I couldn't do them all as I simply don't know all the answers and I have never considered some of the reasons such as why we say don't as opposed to not.

Something I have learnt (apart from the obvious) in completing all these grammar tasks is that I NEED a desk pronto as sitting here writing on my bed has been unbelievably uncomfortable.

Aug


Last edited by Augustus on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12696
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Augustus,

Last three:

I値l give you a ring when I値l arrive.
Correction: I値l give you a ring when I arrive.
Explanation: This is the first conditional and the criteria for this states that it must adhere to using the future in the main clause and the present simple in the if clause.

(First of all, it's NOT conditional - it's a time clause, beginning with "when."I'd say only "present tense" in the TIME clause as the "present continuous / progressive can also be used:
"I'll give you a ring when I'm doing the homework tonight.")

I talked on the phone when Helen arrived.
Correction: I was talking on the phone when Helen arrived.
Explanation: The 1st sentence uses a incorrect verb as talked is a past tense of talk, this sentence needs to use the present participle as the sentence requires a progressive/continuous tense.

(The action "talking on the phone" began in the past before Helen arrived and was going on when she arrived. The problem here is that "when" can have two meanings: "after" and "while." e.g. When Helen arrived, we left for the movie. ("when" meaning "after." But in this example. if the past simple is used with both verbs, the meaning is that Helen arrived first and that caused you to talk on the phone.)


10. I知 sorry,I知 not agree with you.
Correction: I知 sorry, I don稚 agree with you.
Explanation: Although the word 渡ot makes a verb negative, in this sentence it is being used incorrectly as in this context we need to use 電on稚 with all verbs apart from To Be and modal verbs and when the subject is I, you, we or they.

(You also have the wrong punctuation. That's a comma splice and you need a semi-colon {or a coordinate conjunction} to join two sentences.)

Something I have learnt (apart from the obvious) in completing all these grammar tasks is that I NEED a desk pronto as sitting here writing on my bed has been unbelievably uncomfortable.

(Tell the warden and one of the guards will bring you a desk ) Very Happy

Regards,
John
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Augustus



Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're not kidding - I think I am a prisoner here.

I'm quite worried as to what is going to be expected of me here on a CELTA course. I willing to work hard but some of this stuff is just not obvious and very difficult to learn.
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geaaronson



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 948
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I do know that we, the non-native speakers, have just a little, or no chance at all to get into some ESL teaching jobs in the Middle East, China, Japan and etc..., Henna


I have doubts about the veracity of this Henna from my point of view. I live here in southern Mexico and have noted many non native speakers getting ESL teaching jobs-the same for Mexico City where I worked for 28 months.

I am currently teaching in a teacher training program at a private university. True, I was hired because I am a native speaker, but then again the position is part time, 11 hours per week. As I am not a Mexican national, they would never hire full time.

My other position is at a language school. The other teacher is Venezuelan and Spanish is his L1.

At our competitor university, only Mexican nationals are hired. I was a fluke, engineered by the academic director over the protests of the school director.

In DF, my first teaching post included teachers from eastern Europe and Latin America. I have come across Argentinians, Spaniards, Senegalese, Germans and Swiss ESL teachers in the capital.

So yes, there is definitely a preference for L1 teachrs, but it is unreasonable to assume the door is closed. If I were you I would include results from my TOEFL tests as well as a DVD of my conversation in applications for positions I wish most to be hired.
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santi84



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 854
Location: under da sea

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Augustus, I'm not sure how old you are but I am 28 and I never learned grammar in school. I took grammar electives in university (which were only available to ESL or TESL students). It's difficult but it can be done. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of mistakes, but you'll get there. Do you know a second language? I found studying a second language also helped me understand English grammar (the metalanguage and being able to deconstruct sentences without just "knowing" what was right or wrong).
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santi84



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 854
Location: under da sea

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nenna-978 wrote:
so please ignore my typos and incorrect use of the phrasals, but how in the name of world a native speaker could ask questions like thess. Those verb tenses are being studied in the early stage of primary schools and most of my non-native, isolated pupils deal with those two present tenses easily making differences and do know when and how to use them.

So Augustus, please try something else for your career, because this doesn't seems to fit you at all, and I really don't understand you guys who try to explan him the basic grammar rules, because what would he do later???? He can't take you into his classroom to assist him.


Basic English grammar is no longer taught in classrooms here in Canada unless you are an ESL student. It is really unfortunate but it is true (perhaps there are some exceptions but in general, it is no longer a subject).

We learn French grammar but not our own language, it really is an oddity. French-Canadian students learn their own grammar AND English grammar, yet us Anglophones do not. I'm not sure when this changed, because I believe the Canadian teachers here who are 35-40+ learned English grammar in school, but I didn't (2Cool.

So, we have to learn. And Augustus seems to be more like me, trying to pursue a career where we have to start from scratch and admittedly might have less grammar knowledge then our students (well, I think I have more now, but not when I started my degree in 2004!).

- I understand you already apologized, I was just clarifying what the situation is like for some of us younger teachers. I was very disappointed with my high school education!
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nenna-978



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 30
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,
I am sorry for I have caused so much controversy here about native and non native speakers, but yet, we are all open-minded, I assume.

Johnsalt, why can't you accept that the first example is the first conditional. And how would you explain the fact that the future form "will" is used correctly, and I do believe that CELTA aims to prepare you for the teaching ESL, so you have to explain things to the non-native speakers and the main objective is to explain them the way they could understand it well.

"It is possible to use other words instead of if in first conditional sentences:
When: When the 田ondition will definitely happen in the future.

ALTERNATIVE TO 的F WHY USE IT? EXAMPLE
When When the 田ondition will definitely happen. When I die, I値l leave all my money to charity.
As soon as To emphasize immediacy This situation is very urgent. I値l call you as soon as I have more information.
Unless In place of 妬f not You値l fail the test unless you study.
= You値l fail the test if you don稚 study.
Look at the difference between these two sentences:


If I see Sam, I値l give him your message. (I知 not sure if I will see him or not)
When I see Sam, I値l give him your message. (I will definitely see Sam)"

http://www.espressoenglish.net/first-conditional-when-as-soon-as-unless/

Santi , I really have no idea how the educational system works there but I find it unbelieveable that you can't feel the differences between the right and wrong use of langugae. My native language is Slovenic and you are probably familiar how difficult grammar is, but after studing so many years subjects like History, Geography, Sociology, Psychology, Phylosophy, Law, Literature and so on and so on, I have managed to use the language properly, probably not as good as the ones who are dealing with linguistics only.
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nenna-978



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 30
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Geaaronson,
Well the fact is that I have never passed any of the English language tests, except the ones which were obligatory during my studies and professors were so demanding.
I never thought I needed one, but you gave me a good idea, and I'll probably start working on it, and the DVD idea is pretty interesting as well
Thanks
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Augustus



Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right santi84, I'm around the same age and I didn't do any grammar at school beyond the very basics. I'm finding it very challenging to think about why we use don't compared to not in certain sentences.

I feel that I have been done a disservice to some extent as this stuff could have helped me a lot creative writing too.

Augustus
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nenna-978



Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 30
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Augustus
why don't you just relax and take this as a new challenge, and make it easier for yourself. As I can see you are bothering yourself with irrelevant things, let yourself feel the language by its meaning, don't go too much into the syntax, it's too early for that and it will make you confused Cool
Start reading some novels so that you could get used to the proper usage of your native language, the academic . Wink
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geaaronson



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 948
Location: Mexico City

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry got your name wrong. I have a student Jenna.

I would hate to have you not get a good position. Your English is excellent. I co-taught with a Lithuanian student and hers was so distorted, twisted, inaccurate, you get the picture. The only thing that made her a good teacher was that she truly cared.

By the way, she got her position full time at a language school. She became the pet of the director/owner, a privilege at any other school, but there, was a curse.
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