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paying to work
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Lancy Bloom



Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:44 am    Post subject: paying to work Reply with quote

The last 2 years in China have been dreadful for me. The problem is a result of recruiters. I have paid my way to work at different school (public ) and just before it is time to finish the paper work and making a Hong Kong run for the Z visa they tell me I am not a good teacher. They come and watch me before this and tell me I am a good teacher.
What I think is happening is that the schools must pay the recruiter and they try and recoup this money from the foreigner. The foreigner is just window dressing for them anyway. They have a foreigner teach a few months, take some photos of them and tell the parents their children had a foreign teacher.
There is no point in hiring a lawyer here for 10,000 rmb to collect 10,000 rmb. And if you lose you are out 10,000 rmb.
I am in Hong Kong now and have run into so many unhappy teachers who have worked on the mainland.
Another big problem is that the Chinese children are taught to be naughty. The parents find it cute. They expect the school teachers to discipline them. You as a foreigner might see the student one time every week for 40 minutes. With classes averaging around 60 students. These students know you are easy to manipulate. When the foreigner comes to teach for them it is party time.
In Hong Kong they just reduced classes by 4 students. The average middle school class here is 25 students.
Chinese get their jobs by giving gifts. We get out jobs by coming over on our dime.
I expect this post to be attacked by the recruiters and head hunters that post here. Where have the teachers gone on Dave's?
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Javelin of Radiance



Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies but you don't sound smart enough to be a teacher, and within ESL that's often seen as settin the bar pretty low. Either that or you're trolling around. In the event you're legit, which I doubt, if you keep getting turfed from jobs have you ever considered that the problem is with you, and not always the schools?
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zactherat



Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
they tell me I am not a good teacher. They come and watch me before this and tell me I am a good teacher.


Some people just happen to have a knack for classroom management, instructional design, guiding students towards certain discoveries, leading learners to engage in deep thinking skills, manipulating material appropriately, etc. Some people are just talented teachers from the get-go, others - like me - have had to spend a bit more time learning the ropes.

Some though, and i have met many teachers like this, just don't have natural talent in any of the areas necessary to become an effective teacher and lack the capacity to acquire taught skills to a high level of competence. It sounds as though you might fall into this category. This means that if you really want to pursue your dream, you will need as much education and training as possible - go back home and get state-certified. But having said that, there are no guarantees that you will really be able to make it - there are plenty of state-certified teachers that still do more harm than good in the classroom, and untrained teachers with experience are the worst to train afresh..

The idea that anyone can become a teacher is a fallacy driven by over-population and over-crowded schools, perpetuated by policy makers who have no business or experience in the classroom.

Being a teacher might be a nice ideal, but there's no reason to waste your time and energy pushing square pegs into round holes.
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double Post!
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I expect this post to be attacked by the recruiters and head hunters that post here.
Smile
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:24 am    Post subject: Re: paying to work Reply with quote

Lancy Bloom
Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 1

Lancy Bloom wrote:
I expect this post to be attacked by the recruiters and head hunters that post here. Where have the teachers gone on Dave's?


this is not a good way to start a healthy relationship.
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Janiny



Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with The Jav of Rad, Lancy. You see, the basic premise of teaching, and all work really, is that you are paid. Paying for a job is sort of like, I dunno, drinking beer to avoid going number one.

Nearly anyone who isn't a horror to behold, who doesn't set off young children screaming and ladies to faint and is 'clothed and in his right mind,' to quote the Gospels, can get a job teaching ESL in Asia. Why on God's green earth would you pay a recruiter? Perhaps you are one of those people they say there is one is born every minute of.

(Nice deliberate misuse of a preposition in that last sentence, eh, English teachers?)
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the poster is familiar with the environment. Haven't you seen delusional confrontations?

Quote:
I am in Hong Kong now and have run into so many unhappy teachers who have worked on the mainland.
So have I as I briefly worked there.

Quote:
Another big problem is that the Chinese children are taught to be naughty.
Kids misbehave as much, if not more, in Hong Kong as on mainland. Depending on what school you are in, they could make your life pretty miserable either in HK or on mainland. One difference that I have noticed is the unequal respect for a local and foreign teacher in between the two places.

Overall, I relate to the original post for my coworkers' experiences with the inadequate evaluation system of teachers on mainland China. Here, you are more often a great teacher if your students' scores are high but poor one if more of them fail. This seems to be quite an indicator for the judgment day around.
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Lancy Bloom



Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 124
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Give me more. THis is like dealing with the recruiter who Ihave never met. He wants me to pay for an airplane and he will get me another job. How can everyone here know how I teach or others teach?
You forgot to mention my bad breath, big stomach and poor hygene. Oh yes I don't have the newest I POD.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 9510
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He wants me to pay for an airplane and he will get me another job.


That does seem like an extremely high price to pay for a job. I think I'd pass. Shocked Very Happy
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lancy Bloom wrote:
Wow. Give me more. THis is like dealing with the recruiter who Ihave never met. He wants me to pay for an airplane ......


here, try this http://www.trade-a-plane.com/

you'll get great deals on second-hand cessnas.
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vikeologist



Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 540

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lancybloom, none of the following is specifically directed at you. I donlt know you, and (assuming you're not a troll) you at least have the sense to ask for advice.

Why would anyone pay a recruiter to find them work?

Obviously this is the easiest way to get a job in China, but why give all the power in the 'transaction' to someone who has no reason to have your best interests at heart.

If anybody; anybody has had a positive experience of recruiters, please start a thread and tell me why I'm wrong. I have never seen a post extolling the benefits of recruiters who recruit new or inexperienced teachers.

I accept that there are totally different kinds of recruiters; essentially headhunters, who match the creme de la creme of teachers and employers. Another possibility is when you're looking for a specific set of skillsets. At the moment we're looking for an English teacher who can also teach italian, I can probably just ask around and find my italian / English teacher, but I accept employers may find recruiters useful in finding these hard to find needs.

Other than laziness or ignorance, what is the rationale for standard English teachers looking or jobs. Can't you apply for jobs yourselves? Don't you know what questions to ask an employer? Do you think the language barrier is going to be a problem? (If a potential employer has such a bad standard of English that they need an intermediary, that's a red flag in itself).

I feel as though I'm on a similar crusade to those idiots on eslteachersboard who believe that Language Mills are the factories of Satan, but I can see the rationale for starting off in a language mill. Some people (including myself) have had positive experiences. Perhaps not many, and I'm not exactly advocating it, but why would you (by which I mean the endless stream of idiots who keep doing the equivalent of licking their fingers and putting them in electric sockets) keep paying people to find you jobs in China? They will not have your best interests at heart. They can lie to you to get you to take a job, and there's no downside for them.

Do you think there's a shortage of jobs here? The shortage is in good quality teachers. (For some language mills the shortage is in English speaking people without obvious disqualifications).

Do not use recruiters.
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ecubyrd



Joined: 09 May 2009
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikeologist wrote:
Do not use recruiters.


^^ This. I have never used a recruiter to get an ESL job in China or Korea in my 10 years of teaching in Asia. Things have worked out fine for me without them.
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3135

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Janiny wrote:
Paying for a job is sort of like, I dunno, drinking beer to avoid going number one.


Laughing

+1

This gets my quote of the day. Great stuff, Janiny!

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3135

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikeologist wrote:
Do not use recruiters.


Thirded.

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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