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Why are employers in China so awful?
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Ariadne



Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 960

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Occasional power or water outages, okay, things happen, but three days is a heck of a long time to be without power! I wouldn't have left the country but I sure would have found myself a nice hotel.


.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the lowlander wrote:

Thankfully, regulation is coming to China, beginning with the upcoming reform of the visa system in July, and I personally can't wait to see the results.


Any idea what that will cover? I see Indonesia seem to require English / Education degrees ... Id personally like to see BA+CELTA/Trinity introduced here (which tends to be the norm in many regions for entry level work), but cant see it ever happening in China TBH.

Qualified in TEFL means CELTA or Trinity to me. Qualified to teach history to American high-schoolers does not make one qualified to teach English IMHO.
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the lowlander



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 171
Location: The Oort Cloud

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done a bit of research, and the new rules will apparently crack down on those working without a proper visa. It would seem that a proper visa will only be issued to those with the relevant qualifications. In our case, a relevant degree and a teaching certificate.

You're right about Indonesia, and I agree with you 100% regarding qualifications. I'm a Trinity man myself.

I personally would like to see the creation of an internationally recognised professional EFL body to uphold industry standards, and limit access to the field.

Will regulations bite in China?

I was talking to a well known China based recruiter recently who reckons the regulations will take effect in the first rank cities next year, and then slowly filter down to the second and third tiers over the next couple of years.

Like you, I'll believe it when I see it, but I'm all for it for many reasons.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im Trinity and recently-failed DELTA! Embarassed
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denim-Maniac wrote:
Qualified in TEFL means CELTA or Trinity to me. Qualified to teach history to American high-schoolers does not make one qualified to teach English IMHO.
So, what do the Chinese high-schoolers learn in general that the American teacher could not handle?
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wonderingjoesmith wrote:
Denim-Maniac wrote:
Qualified in TEFL means CELTA or Trinity to me. Qualified to teach history to American high-schoolers does not make one qualified to teach English IMHO.

So, what do the Chinese high-schoolers learn in general that the American teacher could not handle?


Ive picked American history in my example as I have first hand experience with said teacher. It could equally be a British Economics teacher though, so please dont be sensitive on subject or nationality. Be qualified to teach history (for example) means one can probably do a good job to teach History, but it doesnt mean they are fully qualified to teach English as a foreign language. I am qualified to teach English so when I go home for good, does that mean I am qualified to be a driving instructor. After all, I can also drive? No ... I need to take specific training, but my previous experience may make the transition to learning something new easier.

Here are two examples to illustrate why I say so. The first is something very simple I use as part of a lesson that illustrates intrusion. Its from a standard EFL textbook so Im not claiming I invented it.

/tuːwənθriːjənfɔː/

I am not sure people who have not undergone standardised EFL training would a) understand what intrusion is and b) be able to read IPA and teach it. You wouldnt encounter it otherwise. Of course ... students understand this very easily so its useful for them.

A second example is that many students struggle between use of second and third conditional. Both of these structures are excellent for engaging oral classes, but can a teacher of math with no formal EFL instruction recognise the different structures and confidently explain form and function to struggling students?

I just believe being qualified to teach one thing does not automatically qualify you to teach another. The history teacher I mentioned I have experience with was a wonderful guy, very popular, but would happily admit he had no idea about many parts of EFL instruction, had to avoid teaching or answering some things and as a result, couldnt always give students what they needed.

And these two examples I listed are just two of many simple everyday 'learning English' things that are students encounter all the time. Being qualified to teach these students how to correct or reduce their mistakes in these things is what we need to be trained to do ... and so I feel that CELTA/Trinity training is the first entry level step in qualification for ALL teachers of EFL.
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chinesearmy



Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 311
Location: canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually all bosses are awful. in the west and in china. marx said so. you are just a cog in the wheel
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fat_chris



Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3135

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chinesearmy wrote:
actually all bosses are awful. in the west and in china. marx said so. you are just a cog in the wheel


Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage. Billy Corgan said so.

Warm regards,
fat_chris
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the lowlander



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 171
Location: The Oort Cloud

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, Denim-Maniac.
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the lowlander



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 171
Location: The Oort Cloud

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chinesearmy, you said,
Quote:
actually all bosses are awful. in the west and in china. marx said so. you are just a cog in the wheel.


All bosses the world over may be awful at heart, but at least in EU countries we have legislation that offers a certain amount of protection to the workforce. Minimum wages being one example.

Not so in jolly old China, where well known companies are paying as little as 9 RMB per hour to local staff, with Mickey Mouse companies paying even less. A direct result of an unregulated supply and demand scenario being allowed to dictate worker's incomes.

These employers pull the same stunts with foreigners too, and are able to get away with it in many instances due to the glut of unqualified "teachers" flooding the Chinese EFL market.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, I think kudos to Chinesearmy - All bosses are awful! Truest words said in the entire thread!
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Javelin of Radiance



Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denim-Maniac wrote:
Nah, I think kudos to Chinesearmy - All bosses are awful! Truest words said in the entire thread!

I also agree.

the lowlander wrote:
Chinesearmy, you said,
Quote:
actually all bosses are awful. in the west and in china. marx said so. you are just a cog in the wheel.


All bosses the world over may be awful at heart, but at least in EU countries we have legislation that offers a certain amount of protection to the workforce. Minimum wages being one example.

While that legislation may protect domestic workers it means squat to many foreign workers in the US, Canada, etc. Wage theft, physical and mental abuse, with-holding of health care, and failing to inform foreign workers of their employment rights are the most common complaints. And since they're foreigners who often have limited English, and they don't vote, little gets done to help them.
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the lowlander



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 171
Location: The Oort Cloud

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Javelin,

I specifically mentioned EU legislation, which protects all workers, domestic and foreign.

Anyway, I find it interesting that you claim all sorts of truly horrific things happen to foreign workers "in the USA and Canada etc" and yet you adamantly refuse to believe that such things happen to foreign teachers in China.

Sorry old bean, but there's something about that particular position that really doesn't sit at all well from a balanced perspective.

For you, the very things you totally believe happen in the West are the very same things that you totally believe don't happen in China.

I'm reminded of George Orwell's Animal Farm.

"Four legs good, two legs bad".

Or as it would seem in this case,

"China all good, West all bad".
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ecubyrd



Joined: 09 May 2009
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't buy that taking a 1 month CELTA course makes one any more qualified to teach English in any country than someone that is a certified teacher in their home country in a random subject area. Most schools would take a native speaking licensed teacher any day over someone that just has a CELTA/Trinity.

From the official website: "CELTA is an initial qualification for people with little or no previous teaching experience and is one of the most widely taken qualifications of its kind."

It is just a basic certification/qualification for people that have no teaching license (mostly) or experience, or for qualified teachers that just simply can't figure out how to teach ESL on their own IMHO.
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NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All bosses the world over may be awful at heart, but at least in EU countries we have legislation that offers a certain amount of protection to the workforce. Minimum wages being one example.


China just raised the minimum wage.....Shenzhen has the highest...Many blame the EU for allowing unqualified workers and the abundance of workers who will accept lower wages in England thus making employment difficult for the native British. The EU is certainly not viewed as protecting all workers rights...and many think it has lowered the standards in Britain by allowing unqualified workers to take the jobs that the British would have access.
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