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Why are employers in China so awful?
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Simon in Suzhou



Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 267
Location: GZ

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the lowlander wrote:


It's pretty clear here that you're not posting from a balanced perspective,


Kettle meet pot...
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Javelin of Radiance



Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the lowlander wrote:
Javelin of Radiance,

I've no wish to fall out with you, but you appear to have a very dogmatic anti-Western/pro-Chinese mindset.

Just as a matter of interest, are you Chinese?

Pardon me for saying so, but you make huge, sweeping, anti-Western statements, without any evidence to support them, and to be honest you sound very anti-Western in many of your postings.

Perhaps you're not Chinese, and you are one of those Westerners who didn't make it back home for various reasons, and so now you're prepared to overlook the failings of your host country (China) because you feel gratitude due to the fact they gave you a second chance.

I mean no offence but, when you make claims like,

"Much of the (anti Chinese) moaning on this board is fairly easy to see through and those who write about the evils of the chinese employer rarely come back to clarify the glaring holes in their stories".

Followed by

"Now take the life of many foreign workers in the US or Canada where legislation exists to protect those workers. The laws are routinely ignored and workers have their pay with-held, they're kept in shabby accommodation, they get sick and don't get treatment, and they can be fired without cause".

It's pretty clear here that you're not posting from a balanced perspective, and it's also clear that you have NO evidence whatsoever to support your claims that employment laws are ROUTINELY ignored in the US and Canada.

If what you say is true, post the links.

I'm sorry, but for me your post(s) simply exhibit the unsupported anti-Western/pro-Chinese bias that you clearly hold and promote for whatever reason, but without any evidence.

Treble Kool Aids all round anyone?

lowlander, I'm not Chinese. Does my writing give me away as Chinese?

I did make it back home, I'm in China by choice, came here mostly for a change of pace, but it's grown on me so I might stay longer than originally planned.

I'm not making huge sweeping anti-Western statements. What I'm saying is that as bad as China can be at times, it can be just as bad in our home countries for anyone willing to see it. The problem is that some of us have this impression that because we're "the west" and because "we're developed" that we can do no wrong, and that places like China have nothing good to offer. Those western countries, wherever they are, supposedly have more progressive labor laws than China has, but those laws are routinely ignored and those breaking the law vis-a-vis foreign workers know the chance of being prosecuted is low or nil, so it happens.

I come from a small city surrounded by farms, farms that are worked by legally employed workers from central America and the Caribbean. The idea that these people were being cheated out of their hard earned pay and other benefits in my own hometown never occurred to me until a reporter finally reported on it after years of it going on. It's also not uncommon for even local people to be cheated out of pay as well, a lot of bosses care about money and nothing else and are simply awful leaders, and know that a lot of workers aren't going to fight for what they're owed. If you want proof of what I've said just google "wage theft" or "wage theft foreign workers" and insert your own country, state, province or region and see what you get. the evidence is out there if you want to see it and believe it. If by some chance you can't find anything I'm happy to send you scads of evidence by private message.

I'm no "apologist" for China, but being here for the past few years, and hearing about other people's negative experiences has caused me to reflect back and try to see how my own country and my own people treat foreign workers. And to be honest, I think it's worse there than it is in China because those employers are not only cheating people who work hard but they're preying on poor, uneducated laborers from developing countries who have fewer options than I do. Wage theft is one of our dirty little secrets except it isn't so little and hopefully, now that it's being exposed, it isn't so secret anymore.

To close the post on topic, this whole discussion would be better placed in the General Discussion forum than here. Ever checked out any of the other country forums on this site? Same complaints on most of them, dishonest employers, bad working conditions, low salaries, inflation, bait and switch, cheats all around. On the Saudi forum you'll discover that if your employer doesn't get you an exit visa you can't even leave the country. To sum up, the entire ESL world is riddled with bad employers, and I accept that some Chinese employers who hire foreign teachers are bad, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking bosses who employ foreigners wherever you or I come from are any better because they're not.
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golsa



Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 178

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the lowlander wrote:

It's pretty clear here that you're not posting from a balanced perspective, and it's also clear that you have NO evidence whatsoever to support your claims that employment laws are ROUTINELY ignored in the US and Canada.


Before I went to university at age 25, I was a carpenter and I saw employers routinely do this to working class/poor American citizens and immigrants.

One of the worst cases involved an illegal immigrant from Mexico who cut his eyelid on a metal brick tie at a construction site. After cutting his eyelid, the worker asked to be taken to the hospital and the company owner said something like this:
Quote:
If you want to go to the hospital, you had best ride your %$^&ing bike there because I ain't taking you.


One employer had a similar policy regarding their workman's compensation insurance: if you fall off a ladder you're fired before you hit the ground.[/quote]
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2052051/Suburban-slumdogs-Scores-desperate-migrants-crammed-shanty-town-sheds-garages-ruthless-landlords-No-Mumbai--London.html

Although this news story is from late last year, there was a special feature about this type of thing on a UK news show this week. I cant find a link to that, but this is an example of how migrants are taken advantage of in the UK.
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we all to believe that the UK, US or any other developed countries' systems are comparable with the country in case?

Quote:
I'm not making huge sweeping anti-Western statements. What I'm saying is that as bad as China can be at times, it can be just as bad in our home countries for anyone willing to see it. The problem is that some of us have this impression that because we're "the west" and because "we're developed" that we can do no wrong, and that places like China have nothing good to offer. Those western countries, wherever they are, supposedly have more progressive labor laws than China has, but those laws are routinely ignored and those breaking the law vis-a-vis foreign workers know the chance of being prosecuted is low or nil, so it happens.
Does the Chinese judicial system functions independently from the red party? How many people that have jobs on mainland have to work LONG hours without overtime pay? What do you think they can do? Of course FTs do not feel it but have a look around and see the locals lives. How many employers do you think are breaking labor laws in our countries and how many on mainland China? How many employees have their choices in our countries vs this one? Let's not get high on the local air pollutants here, please!

Quote:
I come from a small city surrounded by farms, farms that are worked by legally employed workers from central America and the Caribbean. The idea that these people were being cheated out of their hard earned pay and other benefits in my own hometown never occurred to me until a reporter finally reported on it after years of it going on. It's also not uncommon for even local people to be cheated out of pay as well, a lot of bosses care about money and nothing else and are simply awful leaders, and know that a lot of workers aren't going to fight for what they're owed. If you want proof of what I've said just google "wage theft" or "wage theft foreign workers" and insert your own country, state, province or region and see what you get. the evidence is out there if you want to see it and believe it. If by some chance you can't find anything I'm happy to send you scads of evidence by private message.
To my knowledge, people in States that work on farms get away with tax free lives and often with any necessary documentation that legal businesses need. This allows them to cheat and hire virtually anyone, especially immigrants that often do not have all their appropriate paperwork/legal status/schooling. I do see a little parallel there, but we are talking about the field of education here. It’s clear that “surrounded by farms” does not mean surrounded by educational institutions. This is about employers in education, not farming.

Quote:
I'm no "apologist" for China, but being here for the past few years, and hearing about other people's negative experiences has caused me to reflect back and try to see how my own country and my own people treat foreign workers. And to be honest, I think it's worse there than it is in China because those employers are not only cheating people who work hard but they're preying on poor, uneducated laborers from developing countries who have fewer options than I do. Wage theft is one of our dirty little secrets except it isn't so little and hopefully, now that it's being exposed, it isn't so secret anymore.
There is a lot of moral, and ethical strength in this paragraph. However, and as I have pointed out, this is about “preying on” foreign professionals who sometimes are deceived and given one choice only. I mean once you accept the job and have a legal work visa in your passport, with the requirement of the Release or Recommendation Letter, your employer has the right to make the decision about your next move in the country. I strongly believe that “hearing about” and listening to people’s negative experiences is unequal. So, let’s be honest and “reflect” rather than deflect.


Quote:
To close the post on topic, this whole discussion would be better placed in the General Discussion forum than here. Ever checked out any of the other country forums on this site? Same complaints on most of them, dishonest employers, bad working conditions, low salaries, inflation, bait and switch, cheats all around. On the Saudi forum you'll discover that if your employer doesn't get you an exit visa you can't even leave the country. To sum up, the entire ESL world is riddled with bad employers, and I accept that some Chinese employers who hire foreign teachers are bad, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking bosses who employ foreigners wherever you or I come from are any better because they're not.
To close my view on this topic, this is Chinese discussion forum and about the local employers who abuse laws, employees, arrangements, advertisements, and compromise quality of products without being challenged. This isn’t about the Saudi Arabia but if it were i’d click on the forum there. My conclusion is that we ought to encourage posts of the actual teachers and/or ESL teachers in the country rather than publicly discredit them. Otherwise, we’ll really be fooling ourselves.
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the lowlander



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 171
Location: The Oort Cloud

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon in Suzhou

Quote:
Pot meet Kettle


Is that your weighty and fully thought out contribution to this debate?


Last edited by the lowlander on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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the lowlander



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 171
Location: The Oort Cloud

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Javelin of Radiance

I'm no "apologist" for China, but being here for the past few years, and hearing about other people's negative experiences has caused me to reflect back and try to see how my own country and my own people treat foreign workers.

And to be honest, I think it's worse there than it is in China because those employers are not only cheating people who work hard but they're preying on poor, uneducated laborers from developing countries who have fewer options than I do.

Wage theft is one of our dirty little secrets except it isn't so little and hopefully, now that it's being exposed, it isn't so secret anymore
.


Once again, you simply post China good/West very evil, without any evidence/links to support your accusations.

To be honest, your post (as quoted above) sounds like genuine Chinese Government anti-Western propaganda.

And I'm sorry, and I mean no personal offence, but once again, I do question your identity and your motivation for making your posts.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair dude ... I posted a link showing dodgy housing which is taking advantage of migrant workers in the UK as evidence. Im with Javelin on this one.

TBH, China has proved to be very good for many FTs, and Im sure many FT's have friends and partners that have done very well for themselves in China too. Many have come to China because life in their home countries hasnt delivered ... so its quite natural that certain threads will have a very positive pro-China vibe to them.

Im guilty of doing the same ... if not on forums, certainly in real life, where I am often quite anti-UK and pro-China in many discussions.
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the lowlander



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 171
Location: The Oort Cloud

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See below!!

Last edited by the lowlander on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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the lowlander



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 171
Location: The Oort Cloud

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

golsa

Uh Huh.....So where's that evidence mate?
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the lowlander



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 171
Location: The Oort Cloud

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair back matey,

I think if you follow that link via the Daily Mail back to it's conclusion, you'll find that the majority of the dodgy geezers taking advantage of migrant workers in the UK are actually their own people, rather than white Brits.

Moving on.

As you say yourself, and which I've said myself before Many have come to China because life in their home countries hasnt delivered

Or perhaps more accurately, most of them couldn't deliver the goods back home.

This failure and rejection back in the homeland obviously leads to too much unquestioning anti-Western nonsense and anti-Western posturing on these threads, much of which seems to have been posted by those who flopped back home, and who now want to argue in favour of their adopted country.

Plus, of course, politically motivated posters from the above country in question.

How any rational and successful British/European individual could be so anti-UK/EU and so pro-China, defies belief in my opinion, and I read all such anti-Western/pro-Chinese postings with a huge pinch of salt.
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NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How any rational and successful British/European individual could be so anti-UK/EU and so pro-China, defies belief in my opinion, and I read all such anti-Western/pro-Chinese postings with a huge pinch of salt.


It is good advice to regard all postings with a shaker of salt

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chinadad



Joined: 29 Nov 2011
Posts: 291
Location: chengdu

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

TBH, China has proved to be very good for many FTs, and Im sure many FT's have friends and partners that have done very well for themselves in China too. Many have come to China because life in their home countries hasnt delivered ...

how funny - compairing life in the UK and China - just get seriously sick and see how China delivers - retire and live off your FT pension - burn your social and professional bridges and then see how easy it is to resettle back home!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on lets be honest - over 90% of long term FT's are guys - isn't the delivery bit a lot to do with middle aged losers being able to go to work with a hang over, leading a life free of many forms of adult family responsibility and hooking up with pretty girls????

But I'm such a skeptic - I'm sure you guys are now going to fill this thread with stories of how FT's have done very well for themselves in China - through the generous terms offered by their employers. I have a feeling that most FT success stories in China nearly always relate to ex-FT's having hoped off the EFL bandwagon- most commonly by marrying a wealthy spouse or getting employed in another industry.
When it comes to economy and security- since your average FT is two a penny and rather dispensable, being associated with the kind of Chinese who run EFL centers is generally a bit of a dead-end venture.
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DosEquisX



Joined: 09 Dec 2010
Posts: 341

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You never hear about any good stories because those people are out having too much fun to post online. That's why this forum is so depressing. Plus, people as a whole are attracted to bad news and muckraking. So those stories will stick in your head.

I have had very few problems with my employers and I've worked for three of them. Maybe I am very lucky, but any problems I had were addressed and fixed by the school. I should note that I teach at universities and not full-time at private academies.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on this thread has been constant throughout really. The title is 'Why are Chinese employers so awful?', and I would counter that because many aren't.

Im unlike many people here, in that since 2006 I have spent half my time in China, half my time in the UK. During my first contract I spent a heck of a lot of time complaining about China, whilst holding the viewpoint that things were different back home. A view that seems to be a common one on the forums.

But on an extended trip back home I felt that many things in my life in the UK are even more frustrating than things in my life in China. Maybe its because Im more exposed to certain things in the UK, but I feel its definitely naivety to believe that our home countries are utopian and China is such a terrible place to be. Its very easy to believe anti-European sentiment when you live there or have close ties to the EU. Being young and Greek probably sucks right about now.

I also think its undeniable that China offers opportunity that is not always available in western countries. The scale of growth (non-existent in the west) is part of that, the scale of industrial and engineering projects here is also unprecedented, and this also offers opportunity.

I have a friend in ChengDu who works in construction. He is on the second year of a three year project that is going to change his life. An opportunity he probably wouldnt have had in our hometown in the UK.

I worked with an older lady in my last job. a widowed home-owner in her 60's. China gave her a chance to work and time to pursue her painting hobby. She has opened a small art gallery in Yangshuo and sells her own work. She probably wont stay in China, but it has certainly given her an adventure in her twilight years that she will probably always remember.

Both may have bad China days, but Im sure will overall be quite pro-China.

And this opportunity is also open to Chinese people too. In 2008 I taught a girl at a vocational college who failed the gaokao. From a simple family, no guanxi or family money to fall back on. We are still in touch, she graduated two years ago and works in medical sales. Works hard, but earns over 10k a month and has travelled to Brazil, Germany and The Netherlands with her job. She isnt the only successful Chinese person I know. I dont know many young people from the UK with simple backgrounds and average education who have had such opportunity.

It would be equally naive to believe China is a utopian paradise ... of course it isnt ... but it does offer opportunities that may rarely be available, or certainly harder to obtain back home.
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