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Out of curiousity...
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 801

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not all journals are equal, it's perfectly possible to self publish Psychology and EFL papers in a lesser journal without having a university affiliation. You will likely just have to accept a lower impact factor. If you are publishing work you did while you were studying (e.g. your Masters thesis), or work related to it, pretty much all universities will give you honorary affiliation for publication purposes anyway. I've never heard of anyone being refused.

In any case the requirement is that you have either done some research or have a demonstrable theory, a teaching position is largely irrelevant.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HLJHLJ wrote:
it's perfectly possible to self publish Psychology and EFL papers in a lesser journal without having a university affiliation.
Considering that most uni teachers in Japan are part-timers and therefore have no single uni affiliation, the above is true. If the paper is sound, it gets published.
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1304
Location: Way, way off course.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
If the paper is sound, it gets published.


As far as EFL goes, I would dispute that.

Globally, IMO EFL is genuinely awful in the academic standards it allows. The number of times I've read something that genuinely contributed to human knowledge or was practically useful I can fit into one journal. There's certainly good research & applied studies out there, but there's a far higher amount of dross and outright filler than in most other fields IMO.

IMO there's a huge disconnect between the research side of things and the vocational side. Unfortunately, most of the people with the higher qualifications (ie. Master's and above) were taught a hodgepodge of both and are master's of neither. They can't research at a level that produces genuine gains in human knowledge and a lot of them were never taught to actually teach day to day. I really wish there was a better distinction between the vocational side and the research side. But that's what you get with qualification inflation, unfortunately.

This possibly warrants a new thread actually.
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OneJoelFifty



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Glenski wrote:
If the paper is sound, it gets published.


As far as EFL goes, I would dispute that.

Globally, IMO EFL is genuinely awful in the academic standards it allows. The number of times I've read something that genuinely contributed to human knowledge or was practically useful I can fit into one journal. There's certainly good research & applied studies out there, but there's a far higher amount of dross and outright filler than in most other fields IMO.


I don't have a lot of academic experience, but most of the papers I've read seem little more than the kind of common sense observations you can pick up with a year or two of teaching, dressed up to sound like something more.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu,
The way I read your post, you seem to be talking about 2 things.

1. Sound papers do get published. (unless they are written horribly, of course, and as an editor, I've seen my share)

2. Yes, not every published paper is a stellar example of academic research. (this seems to agree with OneJoelFifty). I agree. I think we see more presentations like this than we do articles, though, IMO. It depends on the publication, of course. Not all are peer reviewed or blind-review vetted.

On this latter point, publications called "proceedings" are often not very well respected by universities, because they don't often get strict review. They end up being more like "Hey, presenters, just fire us off a quickie article, and unless it has some major grammatical flaws, we'll take it 'as is', so it's a gimme." Therefore, those (and articles published in one's own university bulletin (kiyo) get fewer points in a hiring process or promotional review.
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
G Cthulhu,
The way I read your post, you seem to be talking about 2 things.

1. Sound papers do get published. (unless they are written horribly, of course, and as an editor, I've seen my share)

2. Yes, not every published paper is a stellar example of academic research. (this seems to agree with OneJoelFifty). I agree. I think we see more presentations like this than we do articles, though, IMO. It depends on the publication, of course. Not all are peer reviewed or blind-review vetted.

On this latter point, publications called "proceedings" are often not very well respected by universities, because they don't often get strict review. They end up being more like "Hey, presenters, just fire us off a quickie article, and unless it has some major grammatical flaws, we'll take it 'as is', so it's a gimme." Therefore, those (and articles published in one's own university bulletin (kiyo) get fewer points in a hiring process or promotional review.


I disagree on the second point you ascribe to me. It looks like you're trying to minimize what I see (& how I read 1Joel50 above as agreeing in theme, if not detail) as the genuinely pitiful state of publishing in the EFL/ESL field.

Quite simply put, I don't regard it as a field with very high academic standards. Or any, for the most part. IMO, the vast majority of what is published is simply filler. Yes, I would agree that the "serious journals" have less of it, but that's about the best that can be said for it.
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G Cthulhu



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
G Cthulhu,
The way I read your post, you seem to be talking about 2 things.

1. Sound papers do get published. (unless they are written horribly, of course, and as an editor, I've seen my share)

2. Yes, not every published paper is a stellar example of academic research. (this seems to agree with OneJoelFifty). I agree. I think we see more presentations like this than we do articles, though, IMO. It depends on the publication, of course. Not all are peer reviewed or blind-review vetted.

On this latter point, publications called "proceedings" are often not very well respected by universities, because they don't often get strict review. They end up being more like "Hey, presenters, just fire us off a quickie article, and unless it has some major grammatical flaws, we'll take it 'as is', so it's a gimme." Therefore, those (and articles published in one's own university bulletin (kiyo) get fewer points in a hiring process or promotional review.


I disagree on the second point you ascribe to me. It looks like you're trying to minimize what I see (& how I read 1Joel50 above as agreeing in theme, if not detail) as the genuinely pitiful state of publishing in the EFL/ESL field.

Quite simply put, I don't regard it as a field with very high academic standards. Or any, for the most part. IMO, the vast majority of what is published is simply filler. Yes, I would agree that the "serious journals" have less of it, but that's about the best that can be said for it.
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G Cthulhu



Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sry, dbl post

Last edited by G Cthulhu on Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G Cthulhu wrote:
Quite simply put, I don't regard it as a field with very high academic standards. Or any, for the most part.
Any? You are being a little too harsh, I think, especially since you admit there are some serious journals after all.

Without trying to defend anyone here, I just wanted to add that many, perhaps most, journals in EFL/ESL operate with a staff of unpaid volunteers. Finding reviewers is difficult, too. I wonder how that compares to other social science and hard science publications. That is, where do editors get their training for those journals that actually have high standards?
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but I'm inclined to agreed with Cthulhu. I've found the standards to be shockingly low in most ESL/EFL journals. It's only the very top journals in any field that have paid staff, most are kept afloat by volunteers, or they may have one paid administrator.

For the most part EFL teachers, including those are Universities, are under qualified and lack solid academic research experience. There is no culture of academic development, if there is any professional development at all, it is usually focused on practical workshops.

In other fields I have worked in the whole department is usually research active. There are weekly in house seminars where staff discuss their research. Current copies of the top journals are available in the staff room and people read them. Colleagues will email round the department with interesting or unusual papers they come across.

When a new junior member of staff arrives, they find an area that interests them and get mentored by someone in that research group. Initially they'll help out with other people's research and gradually build up a portfolio of their own. On the job training if you like.

When research and publishing are seen as an integral part of the job, reading journals and keeping up to date with current research happens naturally. You can't do your job properly if you don't do it. Reviewing articles is part of that, and whilst many people see it as a chore, they still do it, because you have to (unless you have a PhD student you can 'delegate it to).

If the general atmosphere that makes it clear that 'this is a place where research happens' is missing, the rest of the process falls apart. It seems to be missing in most EFL departments.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HLJHLJ wrote:
In other fields I have worked in the whole department is usually research active. There are weekly in house seminars where staff discuss their research. Current copies of the top journals are available in the staff room and people read them. Colleagues will email round the department with interesting or unusual papers they come across.
Certainly true for the hard sciences. Remember that I used to be in that field.

Quote:
When a new junior member of staff arrives, they find an area that interests them and get mentored by someone in that research group. Initially they'll help out with other people's research and gradually build up a portfolio of their own. On the job training if you like.
Can you give an example of this? I have worked in a couple of biotech jobs, and I can assure you that that does not happen for many of the lab research jobs.

Quote:
When research and publishing are seen as an integral part of the job, reading journals and keeping up to date with current research happens naturally. You can't do your job properly if you don't do it. Reviewing articles is part of that, and whilst many people see it as a chore, they still do it, because you have to (unless you have a PhD student you can 'delegate it to).
Again, what sort of situation are you referring to?
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
Certainly true for the hard sciences. Remember that I used to be in that field.


Not just the hard sciences, I've seen it across the board, but so far, not in an ESL/EFL department. Does it happen? If not, why not?

Quote:
Can you give an example of this? I have worked in a couple of biotech jobs, and I can assure you that that does not happen for many of the lab research jobs.


I'm sure there's many different ways of dealing with it. I've never been in a department that was lab based and also primarily a teaching department, only ones that were primarily research. I have no idea how that would work. My example was for departments that are primarily about teaching, but still research active, so people are employed on their teaching background, rather than their research field. The research is often more practical, i.e. related to best practice, etc, rather than novel theory development. It seemed a fairer comparison for EFL than a lab based hard science department.

Quote:
Again, what sort of situation are you referring to?

I don't think I understand your question. You asked how journals got referees, I said people do it out of obligation in research heavy environments. Do you mean you have worked in places where researchers would typically refuse to referee journal articles? I would find that quite shocking and unprofessional.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HLJHLJ wrote:
Glenski wrote:
Certainly true for the hard sciences. Remember that I used to be in that field.


Not just the hard sciences, I've seen it across the board, but so far, not in an ESL/EFL department. Does it happen? If not, why not?
It happens where I work, but we have essentially only 2 of us!

Quote:
I don't think I understand your question. You asked how journals got referees, I said people do it out of obligation in research heavy environments. Do you mean you have worked in places where researchers would typically refuse to referee journal articles? I would find that quite shocking and unprofessional.
I don't know anyone who is forced to review articles (that is, go over pre-publication submissions to see where the weaknesses are and then recommend changes to the editor and author). The reviewers for the EFL journal I edit are all volunteers. When a paper is submitted, they get a look at the abstract and 2 of them serve as reviewers to begin the whole process of polishing the paper for publication.

I've also never heard of anyone in the hard sciences being forced to be a reviewer, either. Lab colleagues would ask if you would look something over, but that's about it. You could always say no.

Maybe we're talking about a different meaning of "review" here.
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenski wrote:
It happens where I work, but we have essentially only 2 of us!


Was that something you instigated or has it always happened?

Quote:
Maybe we're talking about a different meaning of "review" here.


I think we must be. I still don't understand.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HLJHLJ wrote:
Glenski wrote:
It happens where I work, but we have essentially only 2 of us!


Was that something you instigated or has it always happened?
My uni has not had many foreign teachers. Before me there was only 1 (not the person who is my coworker now) for each of the periods that they had any.

Quote:
Quote:
Maybe we're talking about a different meaning of "review" here.


I think we must be. I still don't understand.
I can't explain it more clearly than I did last time. Maybe if you gave me your definition...?
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