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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Lancy Bloom wrote: |
This isn't a personal blog. This is about how business people work. You don't pay to do a job. The person who contracts you pays a fee. In our case it is airfare which is a pittance when you look at how most people get jobs. Most people interview on line then they are flown to the company for another interview. Everything is paid by the future employer.
This is how it was in the past in EFL now the contracts are about employees paying breech penalties.
Let's get back to the real world. You can get fired whenever they want and you can leave whenever they want but you shouldn't pay to work. |
Yes, all jobs pay for employees cars and gas to get to the job. Give it a rest.
My last job back home I had to pay every day to take the bus or subway to work.
Fact is, most people pay to get to work. If some are accustom to having a helicopter transport them to work, why are they getting into esl.
Childish people are one reason Chinese employers sometimes treat employees like children. |
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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Lancy Bloom wrote: |
This isn't a personal blog. This is about how business people work. You don't pay to do a job. The person who contracts you pays a fee. In our case it is airfare which is a pittance when you look at how most people get jobs. Most people interview on line then they are flown to the company for another interview. Everything is paid by the future employer.
This is how it was in the past in EFL now the contracts are about employees paying breech penalties.
Let's get back to the real world. You can get fired whenever they want and you can leave whenever they want but you shouldn't pay to work. |
In all your commentary here it sounds like you're speaking from personal experience. If you come here unqualified and working on a tourist or business visa, as I believe you did, you're setting a trap for yourself. When you're illegal, don't get paid and run out of money, have your passport confiscated, and get kicked out of the country that's your fault. Most people don't experience the troubles you've had because they thought before they acted. How about being honest with yourself, start thinking a bit more, play by the rules, and you might find working here can be a decent experience. |
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Ariadne
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 960
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Wait a minute... if I teach in the state of Oregon and then decide to take a job teaching in Florida, the school will not pay my airfare across the continent. Or my set up and housing costs.
If you are the kind of big bucks employee that gets jetted off to interviews, well, why the heck would you want to teach English in China?
Things change. Maybe they used to pay up front airfare but hey, they don't anymore. The only (possible) change I foresee is eliminating the airfare altogether.
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Nkengaola
Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Wanzhou, Chongqing
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:30 am Post subject: |
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What Ariadne said.
In addition, there WERE times in the past that the employee paid the headhunter/recruiter, NOT the employer. It's been a long while, but it DID happen, and for legitimate jobs in EFL, AND for some jobs in the USA. |
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Lancy Bloom
Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 126
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:51 am Post subject: |
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This is not the same as working in your own country. In your own country you can quit a job and still have a place to live. You will not be fined. There is a big difference between an air line ticket and a bus ticket. America has labor laws and organization set up to make sure you get paid. You don't have to wait a month to see some money like in China. You don't have to wait a year to see what has been promised to you.
I will continue posting on this site that is being used by recruiters to falsely protray employment in China as an English teacher because I am no longer in China. I am no longer afraid of the bullies that govern and run business. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Lancy Bloom wrote: |
This is not the same as working in your own country. In your own country you can quit a job and still have a place to live. You will not be fined. There is a big difference between an air line ticket and a bus ticket. America has labor laws and organization set up to make sure you get paid. You don't have to wait a month to see some money like in China. You don't have to wait a year to see what has been promised to you.
I will continue posting on this site that is being used by recruiters to falsely protray employment in China as an English teacher because I am no longer in China. I am no longer afraid of the bullies that govern and run business. |
UPS in the US withheld my final pay check for 3 months after I quit. I had to get my friend, who is a lawyer, to write them a letter in order to get my money. The government was no help.
Everything is better in other places, China is horrible...Why do people post on a forum when the topic is something they don't like? |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Before the end of the world, or shall i say my existence, I'll try my head against the eslcafe wall.
| Javelin of Radiance wrote: |
| Lancy Bloom wrote: |
This isn't a personal blog. This is about how business people work. You don't pay to do a job. The person who contracts you pays a fee. In our case it is airfare which is a pittance when you look at how most people get jobs. Most people interview on line then they are flown to the company for another interview. Everything is paid by the future employer.
This is how it was in the past in EFL now the contracts are about employees paying breech penalties.
Let's get back to the real world. You can get fired whenever they want and you can leave whenever they want but you shouldn't pay to work. |
In all your commentary here it sounds like you're speaking from personal experience. If you come here unqualified and working on a tourist or business visa, as I believe you did, you're setting a trap for yourself. When you're illegal, don't get paid and run out of money, have your passport confiscated, and get kicked out of the country that's your fault. Most people don't experience the troubles you've had because they thought before they acted. How about being honest with yourself, start thinking a bit more, play by the rules, and you might find working here can be a decent experience. |
Regardless what the "commentary sounds", one should be followed with respect. Otherwise, we'll probably have stooges feeding each other around, won't we? How about being an incorruptible messenger(s) who give(s) the whole 9 yards rather than the 3 prettiest ones.
| Quote: |
Zimmer
Why would any business run the risk of giving them a ticket up front when you can pay them after they've shown themselves to be reliable?
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This polite response has, in my view, the most wisdom of all so far. I truly don�t think I�d fly a teacher from across the globe to my school. What I�d do for the teacher is that I�d set the terms and conditions of the employment clearly and so that they�d protect both parties equally. Perhaps, I�d consider dividing the flight reimbursement into all the teacher�s contractual working months instead of offering it as the final bonus. Would this be a gamble to me? No, because the teacher would earn the monthly divided compensation fairly.
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Ariadne
Wait a minute... if I teach in the state of Oregon and then decide to take a job teaching in Florida, the school will not pay my airfare across the continent. Or my set up and housing costs.
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I�ve paused enough�I paid a few bucks for cabs and a hundred bucks flight ticket from UCLA to Coral Gables uni campus. The uni accommodation was ready and for peanuts there. On the other hand, the flight from the LA airport to HK was over 8 times that much and from the expensive HK it sure wasn�t like Miami.
Regards,
Joe, Mel, Igor and whomever else you�d like me to be |
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Javelin of Radiance
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Lancy Bloom wrote: |
| America has labor laws and organization set up to make sure you get paid. You don't have to wait a month to see some money like in China. You don't have to wait a year to see what has been promised to you. |
Wage theft happens quite often in the US, UK, and Canada . Companies and corporations there squeeze workers for every penny they can, not a lot different than China really, but worse because we're supposed to have laws that protect people. Google "wage theft immigrants" and see how these rights are being violated.
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| Kim, who did not want to use her real name because she is still involved in litigation, began life in the U.S. preparing dumplings and side dishes at a Korean restaurant in Bergen County, New Jersey. Though she worked as many as 17 hours a day, when the restaurant�s business started to decline, the owner began paying employees late or not paying them at all. |
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| Bailey is a warehouse worker in the outsourced Walmart supply chain that criss-crosses America, part of one of the most vulnerable workforces in the US. Bailey and his colleagues work for low pay and minimal benefits. Their recruitment is subcontracted out to myriad staffing agencies, and working conditions can involve tough, repetitive manual labour. Critics say it is a labour market reminiscent of countries like China, yet it exists here in the American heartland of the Midwest. But Bailey and many other Walmart warehouse workers say they have to endure an especially shocking hardship: wage theft. Already very low-paid, they allege their pay packets are sometimes skimmed and squeezed by the staffing agencies subcontracted to employ them. |
| Lancy Bloom wrote: |
| I will continue posting on this site that is being used by recruiters to falsely protray employment in China as an English teacher because I am no longer in China. I am no longer afraid of the bullies that govern and run business. |
Who are these recruiters? Most people here (excluding those who say they just got here a few months ago but seem familiar) appear to be who they say they are and I haven't noticed anyone suspicious here on Dave's. But keep posting, you're good for a few laughs.
| Lancy Bloom wrote: |
| Let's get back to the real world. |
Feel free to join us there anytime. Bus leaves in 5 minutes 
Last edited by Javelin of Radiance on Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
| ......Otherwise, we'll probably have stooges feeding each other around, won't we? How about being an incorruptible messenger(s) who give(s) the whole 9 yards rather than the 3 prettiest ones...... |
this........is........a........mazing. |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Good trolling OP. |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| The way to rid the ESL community of corruption is to make it legal to accept bribes but illegal to offer the bribes. No retribution for those who accept bribes if they testify or turn in the offender. |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| NoBillyNO wrote: |
| The way to rid the ESL community of corruption is to make it legal to accept bribes but illegal to offer the bribes. No retribution for those who accept bribes if they testify or turn in the offender. |
That's great! I have an idea. I'll offer better jobs to the ones that pay me more. Just imagine the choices of the ones that'll have paid me then.  |
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chinatimes
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| No retribution for those who accept bribes if they testify or turn in the offender. |
How do you guarantee they will rat out the person and not someone else they had a rift with? Why rat out someone filling your pocket? |
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NoBillyNO
Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Why rat out someone filling your pocket? |
The same reason rats, rat. They do it cause they got caught.
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/03/reduce-bribery-make-it-legal.html
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India�s chief economic adviser Kaushik Basu argues (pdf; WSJ report) that to reduce bribery we should make the paying of bribes (not the demanding!) legal.
Under the current law�the bribe giver and the bribe taker become partners in crime. It is in their joint interest to keep this fact hidden from the authorities and to be fugitives from the law, because, if caught, both expect to be punished. Under the kind of revised law that I am proposing here, once a bribe is given and the bribe giver collects whatever she is trying to acquire by giving the money, the interests of the bribe taker and bribe giver become completely orthogonal to each other. If caught, the bribe giver will go scot free and will be able to collect his bribe money back. The bribe taker, on the other hand, loses the booty of bribe and faces a hefty punishment.
Hence, in the post-bribe situation it is in the interest of the bribe giver to have the bribe taker caught�.Since the bribe taker knows this, he will be much less inclined to take the bribe in the first place. This establishes that there will be a drop in the incidence of bribery.
Basu notes that he intends this to apply to bribes where the person paying the bribe is receiving only what they are entitled to receive, e.g. when you have to bribe to get a business license that you are entitled to or to get your rice rations or get an income tax refund. |
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Make-Corruption-legal/143854452338897
http://talk.onevietnam.org/end-corruption-in-vietnam-by-making-bribes-legal/
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End Corruption in Vietnam by Making Bribes Legal
Transparency International ranks Vietnam 116th out of 178 in corruption perception. Vietnam can decrease corruption by making paying bribes in the country legal. Here's why.
April 20, 2011 by James Bao
inShare5
Transparency International ranks Vietnam 116th out of 178 in corruption perception. In comparison, the Four Asian Tigers Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, and Hong Kong rank 1st, 39th, 33rd, and 13th, respectively. The United States ranks 22nd. If Vietnam wants to become the fifth tiger, they clearly have to close the huge corruption gap. How? Kaushik Basu, chief economic adviser to India�s Ministry of Finance, has the answer.
To reduce corruption, make paying bribes legal. Taking bribes would still be illegal. If caught, the person taking the bribe would have to return the money and face additional penalties, like going to prison.
It�s a brilliant game of incentives. Here�s an example of how it would work (borrowing from NPR�s article):
You want to remodel your house in Saigon, but the government clerk says you won�t get a permit unless you offer him a bribe. You pay the clerk. Normally, you are now both criminals. However, under the new law, what you�ve done is completely legal. Further more, you can go to the police, report that you paid the clerk a bribe, and the clerk would have to return the money to you (and go to prison).
See what happened there? If you were the clerk, it would be much more dangerous for you to take the bribe under the new law. With the old law, both of you are partners in crime, so both have the incentive to keep quiet. With the new law, you and the clerk have completely opposite incentives. He wants to keep quiet, while you want to tell the police and get your money back.
Of course, it�s not perfect. As NPR suggests, this could lead to an increase of false accusations and it would only apply when the party paying the bribe is legally entitled to receive what they�re paying for.
Do you think this can work in Vietnam? What are potential problems? Let us know in the comments.
Source: NPR, Why Paying Bribes Should Be Legal |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| This is about jobs, people who want to make living. Isn't it common to beg for jobs here? I suppose some job seekers end up bribing someone. If they don't, others will. Some have little choice to survive. Would you punish people who just want to pull through their lives or people who'd like to end up with a fat chunk of money in their pockets? |
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