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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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 Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| TimkinMS wrote: |
| VietCanada wrote: |
| If you are a workhorse willing to work 12+ hours a day in order to earn 6+ hours of actual pay then you'll love it here. IMHO this country is all about exploitation. How many hours can you get from someone for the lowest possible pay is surely a source of humour amongst those driving $100,000 cars while the median pay is about $250 a month for 6 or 7 12+ hour days. This is a reality of emerging economies not a dis of VN or any other country. |
I agree with VietCanada on this point.
But I think the questin a new arrival (or anyone) should ask is:
Where is "money" or "earnings" in my list of priorities.
Of course, if you come here (or anywhere) you need to save something. Funds to leave, for emergency, old age, paying off debt, and what have you.
But if earnings/money is a concern in the top 2 items of your list I would not come to Vietnam. Not if you're a newbie.
Furthermore, if money is an issue I would not advise anyone to get into EFL in almost all countries. Certainly not Vietnam.
It is harder to save now, as some poster mentioned.
For some travel and cultural experience? Yes. For money, career, job prospects for now or in the future? Absolutely not. |
Both of the above must have had terrible experiences. All I can say is that it's your fault. Why would you take a contract like the one described above?
I've been working here for awhile now and have enjoyed it very much. I have never experienced anything remotely like what the two posters above me are discussing.
There is still money to be made in Vietnam, there are enjoyable jobs, and there are wonderful students. If you haven't found them, then I would have to say you are looking in the wrong places or arent qualified enough to land any decent contracts. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| TimkinMS wrote: |
| VietCanada wrote: |
| If you are a workhorse willing to work 12+ hours a day in order to earn 6+ hours of actual pay then you'll love it here. IMHO this country is all about exploitation. How many hours can you get from someone for the lowest possible pay is surely a source of humour amongst those driving $100,000 cars while the median pay is about $250 a month for 6 or 7 12+ hour days. This is a reality of emerging economies not a dis of VN or any other country. |
I agree with VietCanada on this point.
But I think the questin a new arrival (or anyone) should ask is:
Where is "money" or "earnings" in my list of priorities.
Of course, if you come here (or anywhere) you need to save something. Funds to leave, for emergency, old age, paying off debt, and what have you.
But if earnings/money is a concern in the top 2 items of your list I would not come to Vietnam. Not if you're a newbie.
Furthermore, if money is an issue I would not advise anyone to get into EFL in almost all countries. Certainly not Vietnam.
It is harder to save now, as some poster mentioned.
For some travel and cultural experience? Yes. For money, career, job prospects for now or in the future? Absolutely not. |
Both of the above must have had terrible experiences. All I can say is that it's your fault. Why would you take a contract like the one described above?
I've been working here for awhile now and have enjoyed it very much. I have never experienced anything remotely like what the two posters above me are discussing.
There is still money to be made in Vietnam, there are enjoyable jobs, and there are wonderful students. If you haven't found them, then I would have to say you are looking in the wrong places or arent qualified enough to land any decent contracts. |
Hear hear!
I think bottom feeder work attracts bottom feeders. If you've got half decent qualifications and experience, why anyone would come to a developing country and work their butt off for a paltry amount of money is beyond me. |
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bobpen
Joined: 04 Mar 2011
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Both of the above must have had terrible experiences. All I can say is that it's your fault. Why would you take a contract like the one described above?
I've been working here for awhile now and have enjoyed it very much. I have never experienced anything remotely like what the two posters above me are discussing.
There is still money to be made in Vietnam, there are enjoyable jobs, and there are wonderful students. If you haven't found them, then I would have to say you are looking in the wrong places or arent qualified enough to land any decent contracts. |
Hear hear!
I think bottom feeder work attracts bottom feeders. If you've got half decent qualifications and experience, why anyone would come to a developing country and work their butt off for a paltry amount of money is beyond me. |
You just negated his point but started it with a phrase of agreement.  |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Well Bob, I wasn't negating his point, I was agreeing with it. The fact is bad work situations is usually the fault of the teachers. One must have a bit of nous in signing contracts and working in general in EFL to avoid bad situations.
I then expanded my agreement with my bottom feeder comments. These weren't aimed at Luke, rather, at some of the people on this forum who are complaining about their low-paid jobs, who need to work massive hours to make ends meet. I see this as a reflection of their lack of ability, experience, options and perhaps naivety. I saw talk of "exploitation". What a joke. The average EFL Muppet gets what, $18/hr while your average Vietnamese teaching assistant gets about $1 an hour.
Sorry about the confusion. |
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TimkinMS
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:48 am Post subject: |
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[quote="ExpatLuke"]
| TimkinMS wrote: |
| VietCanada wrote: |
| If you are a workhorse willing to work 12+ hours a day in order to earn 6+ hours of actual pay then you'll love it here. IMHO this country is all about exploitation. How many hours can you get from someone for the lowest possible pay is surely a source of humour amongst those driving $100,000 cars while the median pay is about $250 a month for 6 or 7 12+ hour days. This is a reality of emerging economies not a dis of VN or any other country. |
I agree with VietCanada on this point.
But I think the questin a new arrival (or anyone) should ask is:
Where is "money" or "earnings" in my list of priorities.
Of course, if you come here (or anywhere) you need to save something. Funds to leave, for emergency, old age, paying off debt, and what have you.
But if earnings/money is a concern in the top 2 items of your list I would not come to Vietnam. Not if you're a newbie.
Furthermore, if money is an issue I would not advise anyone to get into EFL in almost all countries. Certainly not Vietnam.
It is harder to save now, as some poster mentioned.
For some travel and cultural experience? Yes. For money, career, job prospects for now or in the future? Absolutely not. |
| Quote: |
Both of the above must have had terrible experiences. All I can say is that it's your fault. Why would you take a contract like the one described above? |
I have had good expreriences. I have worked on contracts, but usually do not work on full time contracts by choice.
My point is that it's harder to save now. If you're single, rent a room, and don't go out drinking and indulge in other forms of entertainment you can save some money. But not a lot.
My perspective is that of a Westerner (American) who will return to the US one day. Most of us will return. The Cost of Living back home is massively higher, as we know.
| Quote: |
I've been working here for awhile now and have enjoyed it very much. I have never experienced anything remotely like what the two posters above me are discussing. |
I enjoying teaching a lot. That is why I continue to do it. My focus was on posters who ask about "saving."
| Quote: |
There is still money to be made in Vietnam, there are enjoyable jobs, and there are wonderful students. If you haven't found them, then I would have to say you are looking in the wrong places or arent qualified enough to land any decent contracts. |
I have all of the necessary qualifications, fully notarized, etc.
In my experience, it comes down to the "Pareto Principle." the concept of 80/20.
20% of the teachers save and about 80% just get by or save a little.
If one is motivated, wants to teach, has the quals, and is smart about it, they can do OK.
But as for saving, you'll save something, but don't expect to save a lot. |
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aqm22
Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| bobpen wrote: |
| No, I didn't sense any hostility, and definitely not directed at you. I just think that some users feel a bit of a sense of responsibility to tell the truth so that new folks don't get so easily burned, which could have been prevented or at least limited with some good basic warnings and information. I don't believe any one is addressing you specifically. They're just putting the information out there so that people have it. Keep in mind that Asia is sort of growing into a more disorganized system, which needs to be reported. |
I understand the sentiment. I really do, and I really do appreciated it. I can't stress that enough.
| vabeckele wrote: |
Dear OP,
I think VietCanada's perspecitive is spot on and can only come from someone who has put his time in over here - no hostility.
My first year saw me actually enjoying getting ripped off, hassled, badgered and generally mucked around. And that was just the schools. As long as there are enough funds in the bank to absorb any major setback, the mind can rest. Take away funding and the enjoyment of all 'the colourful people', begins to disappear pretty fast - you are now fighting for housing, food, medical care, work and all as an outsider and a mark to boot.
Come on over and enjoy your stay, it will be one you will never forget.
Some of us here are really here to help. |
Again, I understand the sentiment. I appreciate all your efforts to help. Unless, you all don't believe me when I say I really am not expecting paradise or an easy ride.
| TimkinMS wrote: |
| aqm22 wrote: |
| No offense intended, but I get the feeling that I'm being told not to come to VN. Either that or, I'm misunderstanding things. |
I didn't imply that you not come to VN.
Welcome.
My comments (and I think other comments) were not specifically directed towards you in particular but general comments about people arriving here to do EFL. |
Okay, in that case, I guess I can understand it a bit. I guess, most people that jump ship to come do EFL do have have rose tinted glasses. Point taken.
| skarper wrote: |
While it's easy to overdo it and sound cynical/negative newbies need to 100% understand that the good time are long gone in Vietnam (and every other EFL/ESL destination too for that matter).
But - for many EFL is the best option to get out of the daily grind of low pay, long hours and spiralling debt that is the working reality in most European countries and has been for a while. Not sure about the US but I'm guessing it's similar.
Here you have the choice. If you work your a$$ off you will make a bit of money. Not massive amounts but you will save money.
If you kick back and take it easy you can still get by but won't save and won't live the high life.
It is a choice that it's nice to have, frankly. |
Thanks. This my sentiment not so much the low pay and long hours but the grinding. I don't like the daily grinding. If I'm gonna grind, I'd rather grind at some strange exotic place. Makes life more interesting.
| vabeckele wrote: |
I know a guy out here, in his 40's with a 4 week teaching certificate, who has been here for years. Now, this guy, remember he is in his 40's, is still calling home to mummy for funding quite regularly and then goes and hits the booze pretty heavily with his, 'professional teachers'. This kind of behaviour is okay for people in their 20's who are clean, but I would be a very disappointed parent indeed if it continued to the point where my son became a bum with a Celta.
Be very weary of those that are selling the ESL paradise dream. |
Not a good example, at least not for me. First, I would never call home for money. Ever. Second, I would never be out drinking/shopping (i'm a girl) or anything like if I was short on money. I've been in a tough situations before. I would never spend money I don't have on things I don't need.
| TimkinMS wrote: |
I have had good expreriences. I have worked on contracts, but usually do not work on full time contracts by choice.
My point is that it's harder to save now. If you're single, rent a room, and don't go out drinking and indulge in other forms of entertainment you can save some money. But not a lot.
My perspective is that of a Westerner (American) who will return to the US one day. Most of us will return. The Cost of Living back home is massively higher, as we know. |
| TimkinMS wrote: |
I have all of the necessary qualifications, fully notarized, etc.
In my experience, it comes down to the "Pareto Principle." the concept of 80/20.
20% of the teachers save and about 80% just get by or save a little.
If one is motivated, wants to teach, has the quals, and is smart about it, they can do OK.
But as for saving, you'll save something, but don't expect to save a lot. |
I guess, there's some misunderstanding on my part as to who all of these comments were directed towards. It seems they were geared towards the general newbies rather than just me personally (since this is my post and all). My thinking, from everything I've read and heard, is exactly like TimkinMS stated. I don't expect to save a lot, and I certainly don't expect it to be a cakewalk either. However, I think if I put enough effort I should do okay.
Like I've stated, I'd rather grind in some place more interesting than my office here in the US.
Also, an update to my original post, the two schools have emailed me with more information. Nothing is set yet, but at least it's moving again. I'm feeling better.
I can't say it enough but thanks for all the reply. |
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aqm22
Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| bobpen wrote: |
| No, I didn't sense any hostility, and definitely not directed at you. I just think that some users feel a bit of a sense of responsibility to tell the truth so that new folks don't get so easily burned, which could have been prevented or at least limited with some good basic warnings and information. I don't believe any one is addressing you specifically. They're just putting the information out there so that people have it. Keep in mind that Asia is sort of growing into a more disorganized system, which needs to be reported. |
I understand the sentiment. I really do, and I really do appreciated it. I can't stress that enough.
| vabeckele wrote: |
Dear OP,
I think VietCanada's perspecitive is spot on and can only come from someone who has put his time in over here - no hostility.
My first year saw me actually enjoying getting ripped off, hassled, badgered and generally mucked around. And that was just the schools. As long as there are enough funds in the bank to absorb any major setback, the mind can rest. Take away funding and the enjoyment of all 'the colourful people', begins to disappear pretty fast - you are now fighting for housing, food, medical care, work and all as an outsider and a mark to boot.
Come on over and enjoy your stay, it will be one you will never forget.
Some of us here are really here to help. |
Again, I understand the sentiment. I appreciate all your efforts to help. Unless, you all don't believe me when I say I really am not expecting paradise or an easy ride.
| TimkinMS wrote: |
| aqm22 wrote: |
| No offense intended, but I get the feeling that I'm being told not to come to VN. Either that or, I'm misunderstanding things. |
I didn't imply that you not come to VN.
Welcome.
My comments (and I think other comments) were not specifically directed towards you in particular but general comments about people arriving here to do EFL. |
Okay, in that case, I guess I can understand it a bit. I guess, most people that jump ship to come do EFL do have have rose tinted glasses. Point taken.
| skarper wrote: |
While it's easy to overdo it and sound cynical/negative newbies need to 100% understand that the good time are long gone in Vietnam (and every other EFL/ESL destination too for that matter).
But - for many EFL is the best option to get out of the daily grind of low pay, long hours and spiralling debt that is the working reality in most European countries and has been for a while. Not sure about the US but I'm guessing it's similar.
Here you have the choice. If you work your a$$ off you will make a bit of money. Not massive amounts but you will save money.
If you kick back and take it easy you can still get by but won't save and won't live the high life.
It is a choice that it's nice to have, frankly. |
Thanks. This my sentiment not so much the low pay and long hours but the grinding. I don't like the daily grinding. If I'm gonna grind, I'd rather grind at some strange exotic place. Makes life more interesting.
| vabeckele wrote: |
I know a guy out here, in his 40's with a 4 week teaching certificate, who has been here for years. Now, this guy, remember he is in his 40's, is still calling home to mummy for funding quite regularly and then goes and hits the booze pretty heavily with his, 'professional teachers'. This kind of behaviour is okay for people in their 20's who are clean, but I would be a very disappointed parent indeed if it continued to the point where my son became a bum with a Celta.
Be very weary of those that are selling the ESL paradise dream. |
Not a good example, at least not for me. First, I would never call home for money. Ever. Second, I would never be out drinking or anything like if I was short on money. I've been in a tough situations before. I would never spend money I don't have on things I don't need.
| TimkinMS wrote: |
I have had good expreriences. I have worked on contracts, but usually do not work on full time contracts by choice.
My point is that it's harder to save now. If you're single, rent a room, and don't go out drinking and indulge in other forms of entertainment you can save some money. But not a lot.
My perspective is that of a Westerner (American) who will return to the US one day. Most of us will return. The Cost of Living back home is massively higher, as we know. |
| TimkinMS wrote: |
I have all of the necessary qualifications, fully notarized, etc.
In my experience, it comes down to the "Pareto Principle." the concept of 80/20.
20% of the teachers save and about 80% just get by or save a little.
If one is motivated, wants to teach, has the quals, and is smart about it, they can do OK.
But as for saving, you'll save something, but don't expect to save a lot. |
I guess, there's some misunderstanding on my part as to who all of these comments were directed towards. It seems they were geared towards the general newbies rather than just me personally (since this is my post and all). My thinking, from everything I've read and heard, is exactly like TimkinMS stated. I don't expect to save a lot, and I certainly don't expect it to be a cakewalk either. However, I think if I put enough effort I should do okay.
Like I've stated, I'd rather grind in some place more interesting than my office here in the US.
Also, an update to my original post, the two schools have emailed me with more information. Nothing is set yet, but at least it's moving again. I'm feeling better.
I can't say it enough but thanks for all the reply. |
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Durian Tango
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 65
Location: HCMC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:04 am Post subject: |
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OP - You are going to succeed here in Vietnam, or wherever you go for that matter. You have the right attitude and the right spirit. Every country has its good parts and its bad parts and Vietnam is one of the more incredible countries in the world, so it seems like a good place to start. Vietnam, like so many countries, has an economy that fluctuates and has a job market that offers both high quality and low quality jobs. Those that work hard, act (and dress) professional, have determination and a consistently positive attitude tend to get the good jobs and establish a fun and interesting life abroad. Obviously one needs to have a reasonable amount of qualifications as well.
I think you should come to Vietnam, I'd love to be your colleague. |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| TimkinMS wrote: |
| VietCanada wrote: |
| If you are a workhorse willing to work 12+ hours a day in order to earn 6+ hours of actual pay then you'll love it here. IMHO this country is all about exploitation. How many hours can you get from someone for the lowest possible pay is surely a source of humour amongst those driving $100,000 cars while the median pay is about $250 a month for 6 or 7 12+ hour days. This is a reality of emerging economies not a dis of VN or any other country. |
I agree with VietCanada on this point.
But I think the questin a new arrival (or anyone) should ask is:
Where is "money" or "earnings" in my list of priorities.
Of course, if you come here (or anywhere) you need to save something. Funds to leave, for emergency, old age, paying off debt, and what have you.
But if earnings/money is a concern in the top 2 items of your list I would not come to Vietnam. Not if you're a newbie.
Furthermore, if money is an issue I would not advise anyone to get into EFL in almost all countries. Certainly not Vietnam.
It is harder to save now, as some poster mentioned.
For some travel and cultural experience? Yes. For money, career, job prospects for now or in the future? Absolutely not. |
Both of the above must have had terrible experiences. All I can say is that it's your fault. Why would you take a contract like the one described above?
I've been working here for awhile now and have enjoyed it very much. I have never experienced anything remotely like what the two posters above me are discussing.
There is still money to be made in Vietnam, there are enjoyable jobs, and there are wonderful students. If you haven't found them, then I would have to say you are looking in the wrong places or arent qualified enough to land any decent contracts. |
The comments I made were advice to newbies based on what I've seen, heard and read. That you would take these comments and assume that they reflect the existing experiences of the posters strongly implies that you have no answer to the reality of Vietnam other than to attack the messenger.
Good luck with that. And why would you do that? Are you a hiring manager in VN? What's in it for you? More friends? |
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