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A contract for recruiters??
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General Disarray



Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Posts: 35
Location: Kent

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: A contract for recruiters?? Reply with quote

I've been teaching English in Europe for the last 2 years, I used this forum to help with information before I dived into the job though. I have a friend who is just starting out and she is determined to go to China, so I am asking this question on behalf of her.

She is;

1) Non-Native (Hungarian) but extremely high level of English and grammar, been studying for last 5 years, but my understanding of in China is this comes second.
2) Not completed her bachelors degree yet.
3) Speaks Mandarin to a decent level (hence the ambition to go to China).
4) Does not have a TEFL certificate but has experience in teaching.

She started applying for jobs maybe 10 days ago, she has had an interview (20 minute skype) with a company who loved her (Beautiful young lady with blue eyes, blonde hair who speaks Mandarin and English with an American accent, I told her this helps.)

She sent me the contract they sent her to check it, I asked her if they gave her native speakers she could contact who work for the school. She said she asked but because they was a recruiting company, they can't give her any e-mail addresses because they are working for the schools now (Sent the alarm bells ringing in my head, but maybe as a recruiter this is possible?). I haven't heard of this before, but it was 2 years ago I looked for information about working in Asia.

Does this sound a bit weird??

They have also told her she will need to go to Hong Kong to get a VISA, I thought this is okay because I had a friend 2 years ago who took this route with regards to Hong Kong.

Le Ying Ltd is the company and the original job advert she applied for was to do with a kindegarten in Beijing. I have tried to google the company and see if they pop up on any messageboards, but unfortunately they are two very common words meaning my results are flooded with other random stuff.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, I'm sure this question has been answered before but it's good to get some information directly related to your problem from people who know the system and have been through it.

I don't want to scare her off this job in case it is a real chance for her, but at the same time I don't want her to be scammed and have 5 months of hell.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2603
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay away.
Once the recruiter has her hooked, she will be hawked around and have no idea where.
Time-wise, she is well placed to secure something for 1 Sept start.
After 10 days she is the very early stages of her job search and should not fixate (as many newcomers do) on the first flicker of interest. Look for direct contact with schools - including unis and vocationals in the public sector.
The tourist visa has been forked over so many times, I won't repeat the view most have.
Once working, countless excuses will be given to defer her travel to HK and as for paying for the travel and accommodation - forget it.
On a tourist visa, if she is ripped off she has no redress as no enforceable contract exists.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: A contract for recruiters?? Reply with quote

General Disarray wrote:


I don't want to scare her off this job in case it is a real chance for her, but at the same time I don't want her to be scammed and have 5 months of hell.


The law (which may or may not be applied equally in all provinces) for the purpose of a genuine working permit and visa is to be a native speaker and holder of an undergraduate degree. She is neither and is unlikely to find a genuine teaching position. She should consider another career and another country IMHO ... or wait until she has the appropriate qualifications and try again.

Bottom line is she will be working illegally in China, or she will secure a working permit illegally.

@ NS - 'well placed for a Sep start' ???? With non-native status and no undergraduate degree or TEFL qualification Id have to disagree mate, she just isnt qualified to work here really.... and whilst many do get away with it Id be very loath to encourage someone who is so far away from being qualified
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2603
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@denim
Well that's so and you've been around long enough to know.
However, wouldn't she be in the same situation as our many Filipino colleagues - but with the plus of blonde hair, blue eyes and some Mandarin?
She'd be wasting the Mandarin if she went elsewhere.
@OP PM me if I can be of assistance. I would be trying to turn her multilingual skills into a plus - maybe with the foreign language colleges teaching English language conversation at say fresher level and then her native tongue as a subject teacher.
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Denim-Maniac



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 1238

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know dude ... Of course I have worked with non-native colleagues, but they normally have some of the required qualifications. My room-mate last year was Polish, but in his favour was an MA in Education and a CELTA to go with proper language school experience.

In this example, we have a non-native, no undergrad degree, no EFL qualification. Thats three strikes. The experience is stated, but without any detail so I would assume its minimal and not verifiable. (If people have competed two years teaching within WSI or Disney they be quick to point that out for example)

Ive worked with non-native speakers. Ive worked with non-undergrad degree holders. And we've all worked with inexperienced teachers and those without EFL qualifications ... but Ive never worked with someone who doesnt have at least some of the above. L1 isnt an advantage really ... and use of L1 is even banned with many employers.

Id really struggle to help or even wish good luck to someone that is so lacking in the legal requirements to land employment here. Candidates and job seekers who dont meet any of the required standards are a poor advert for the 'industry' IMHO.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2603
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All true Denim, all true.
Don't want to set someone up to fail do we?
Hope OP chimes in again and we learn what happens.
Best
NS
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L00kingforwork



Joined: 15 Jun 2012
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True dat. Though she has the 'look', I woudn't want to encourage anyone to work in China illegally. She should wait until she finishes her degree at the very least.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2603
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@LOOking
I agree doing the tourist visa thing is the worst possible option.
But if a legit employer is prepared to make an offer even on what she has now, I see no reason why she shouldn't proceed.
The foreign language uni world is more than a little opaque.
I visited the one in Dalian years ago, for a speech comp (I didn't work there) and there seemed to be teachers from all over.
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chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
they can't give her any e-mail addresses because they are working for the schools now (Sent the alarm bells ringing in my head, but maybe as a recruiter this is possible?)


Why did it send alarm bells? Most of the time what they said is true. Your thread title suggests otherwise. Recruiter A can recruit for School A and give School A Teacher A's email address. Then Recruiter B can come a year later and recruit for School A while Recruiter A recruits for another school.

In this case, Recruiter B is saying, "I don't have the email address, either School A or Recruiter A does." Nothing fishy yet.

Quote:
A contract for recruiters??


This was your thread's title and what you outlined in your post suggests otherwise.

When I read the title I thought you meant the recruiter wants to farm you out to several schools by signing a contract with them instead of the school. The part, "they are working for the schools now" could suggest this or just mean schools in general.

So, the first thing I would do is ask how many schools the teacher is supposed to work at. You will lose a lot of transportation time. I did 13 months with a school that farmed out teachers but only taught at 1 school mostly. I don't regret it and would do it again.

One minor setback, the school changed locations making it further away from my apartment. So, imagine this happening to several schools you teach at? Another reason not to take these offers.

So far, I don't see any problems, just not enough information about the job. That's the recruiter's job to tell you, and usually when I ask they transfer me over to the school.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2603
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chinatimes wrote:
Quote:
they can't give her any e-mail addresses because they are working for the schools now (Sent the alarm bells ringing in my head, but maybe as a recruiter this is possible?)


Why did it send alarm bells? Most of the time what they said is true. Your thread title suggests otherwise. Recruiter A can recruit for School A and give School A Teacher A's email address. Then Recruiter B can come a year later and recruit for School A while Recruiter A recruits for another school.

In this case, Recruiter B is saying, "I don't have the email address, either School A or Recruiter A does." Nothing fishy yet.

Quote:
A contract for recruiters??


This was your thread's title and what you outlined in your post suggests otherwise.

When I read the title I thought you meant the recruiter wants to farm you out to several schools by signing a contract with them instead of the school. The part, "they are working for the schools now" could suggest this or just mean schools in general.

So, the first thing I would do is ask how many schools the teacher is supposed to work at. You will lose a lot of transportation time. I did 13 months with a school that farmed out teachers but only taught at 1 school mostly. I don't regret it and would do it again.

One minor setback, the school changed locations making it further away from my apartment. So, imagine this happening to several schools you teach at? Another reason not to take these offers.

So far, I don't see any problems, just not enough information about the job. That's the recruiter's job to tell you, and usually when I ask they transfer me over to the school.


Sorry Chinatimes, but it's for the hiring side to satisfy the enquiries of the job seeker (please note she is a third party to this thread).
It is not for her to attempt convoluted explanations (A goes to B who talks about C) of why they can't come up with the names and contact details of people who can speak about the school(s).
Referees are central to any hiring process, not just China and caginess about them sends big warning signals.
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chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it's for the hiring side to satisfy the enquiries of the job seeker


The recruiter doesn't hire. The employer hires. An employer has no obligation to provide references.

In practical terms, I ask questions the recruiter doesn't know the answers to. They then transfer me to the lacky of the school and I get my answers there.

Where is the phobia with talking with the lacky of the school?

Quote:
It is not for her to attempt convoluted explanations


No explanation necessary. I am waiting on my lacky of my new school to tell me when I can pick up my passport.

Bam shabam, I will leave China in 10 days and return to a new school.

Quote:
Referees are central to any hiring process, not just China and caginess about them sends big warning signals.


Well, I think referees are more essential when you work a month and don't get paid. If a sticker on a "help wanted" sign is not straight, I don't think we need to be calling in the cavalry yet.

I never met a referee at an interview. What name do they go by these days, good ole chap?
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: A contract for recruiters?? Reply with quote

General Disarray wrote:
She is;

1) Non-Native (Hungarian) but extremely high level of English and grammar, been studying for last 5 years, but my understanding of in China is this comes second.
2) Not completed her bachelors degree yet.
3) Speaks Mandarin to a decent level (hence the ambition to go to China).
4) Does not have a TEFL certificate but has experience in teaching.

....and the original job advert she applied for was to do with a kindegarten in Beijing.


beijing with NO qualifications?

i think not.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2603
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chinatimes wrote:
Quote:
it's for the hiring side to satisfy the enquiries of the job seeker


The recruiter doesn't hire. The employer hires. An employer has no obligation to provide references.

In practical terms, I ask questions the recruiter doesn't know the answers to. They then transfer me to the lacky of the school and I get my answers there.

Where is the phobia with talking with the lacky of the school?

Quote:
It is not for her to attempt convoluted explanations


No explanation necessary. I am waiting on my lacky of my new school to tell me when I can pick up my passport.

Bam shabam, I will leave China in 10 days and return to a new school.

Quote:
Referees are central to any hiring process, not just China and caginess about them sends big warning signals.


Well, I think referees are more essential when you work a month and don't get paid. If a sticker on a "help wanted" sign is not straight, I don't think we need to be calling in the cavalry yet.

I never met a referee at an interview. What name do they go by these days, good ole chap?


I'm completely mystified by your post.
As a recruitment consultant of many years experience (I even wrote a book on the subject) and an FT of some years experience, I can find no relevance to either in your meanderings.
The OP came onto the forum with a genuine question about a friend who has an interesting set of credentials. Most of us have been trying to help.
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chinatimes



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As a recruitment consultant of many years experience (I even wrote a book on the subject) and an FT of some years experience, I can find no relevance to either in your meanderings.


And the implication is that what you said before is more correct because of such experience?

If I took your advice and told the recruiter I would not take a job until I talked with a previous teacher, even if that recruiter genuinely didn't have the contact info of a previous teacher, I would not have a job.

Even if I had a phone number and email address of a previous teacher, that doesn't mean the school is the same. It could be under new management, the other teachers working there would also influence how working there is run, and the students. Students come and go. I know some schools that change the subjects they teach to get new groups.

There is absolutely no guarantee that contact information is going to benefit new teachers, nor is it a requirement.

If you in your experience as a recruiter knows of laws or immigration websites which state otherwise, then please show it. Standing all high and mighty because you were a recruiter doesn't convince me you are correct. It only means you are covering up something you shouldn't have stepped into.

Otherwise you would be providing the details I mentioned.

Quote:
The OP came onto the forum with a genuine question about a friend who has an interesting set of credentials. Most of us have been trying to help.


I am too. I am saying to talk with the school. Why is this so hard to comprehend? Talk with the school and get contact info if it is available. Be aware that it isn't going to necessarily benefit a new teacher. You still need to talk with the school and get an idea how you get along with the school.

Just because another native English speaker had a good or bad experience doesn't mean you will. I know plenty of schools where I got along with the school and other teachers didn't. They left. I also left schools that didn't match my interests and goals. You don't need to follow my advice and that is the advice I am saying, to not follow other people blindly unless you AGREE with them. At least do that please. If you get someone else's opinion about a school, please talk with the school to confirm their suspicions/accusations.

It reminds me of high school antics where rumors are spread about a particular kid and then it gets exaggerated. The truth is not only lost, but people are negatively affected in the end.

If you don't think that advice is helpful, then ignore it. I don't care. That's not going make me demand contact info when I seek new employment next time.
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2603
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's all this 'me' and 'I'?
Given that subject of OP doesn't have a lot to bring to the table, she is more liable than most to be ripped off.
My advice to HER is to protect as much as possible by seeking contact details of previous teachers who have worked at named school or at very least been placed in a position by that recruiter.
Given the number of threads starting 'Has anyone worked at ...' this information is clearly of valuable to job seekers and I encourage them to continue in this way.
It's the nearest thing FTs have to an employer blacklist and maybe we'll see the day when Chinese employers realise that a good reputation is to be prized.
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