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Gun Control
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12380
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Gun Control Reply with quote

Will they ever get it in the USA ?
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 9600
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously WAY overdue.
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HLJHLJ



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 915

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not in any meaningful way, it's too late. The country is awash with guns already, most of the nutters have already got them and they aren't going to give them up. You would need a massive cultural shift before it could have any hope of success, and there's no reason to believe that will happen.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 9600
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree; it would be near-impossible to get back the guns already in circulation. It's just going to continue to be dangerous, regardless of new legislation. Another reason my personal preference is to remain entirely elsewhere for the long term.
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 867
Location: the world

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like these attacks are on the increase. Shooters very often target educational institutions and shopping malls. If gun laws are not going to be repealed, maybe more public money needs to be invested in warning alarm systems, safety drills in schools etc., and in constructing safety, bullet-proofed rooms that can be accessed in a hurry and locked.

It will be expensive and it won't solve the real problem, but it just might save a few more lives, although I think the target goals of those who go on the rampage will shift accordingly. It's truly chilling how much planning goes into these mass shootings. Many now dress themselves fully in protective gear, including helmets, and carry extra ammunition. They make sure they're not easy to 'take out', even if you have the shooting skills and available gun to do so.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12862
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are three main causes for these tragic events. Put them all together: 1. widespread mental problems, 2. romanticizing gun violence, and 3. easy accessibility to semiautomatic and automatic weaponry - and that's the recipe for the tragedy that happened yesterday and has happened all too often before in this country.

Can the occurrences be stopped? I doubt it. But maybe they can be reduced by providing more accessible mental health care, de-romanticizing the cult of the gun, and tightening gun controls.

Regards,
John
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artemisia



Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 867
Location: the world

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
I think there are three main causes for these tragic events. Put them all together: 1. widespread mental problems, 2. romanticizing gun violence, and 3. easy accessibility to semiautomatic and automatic weaponry .... maybe they can be reduced by providing more accessible mental health care, de-romanticizing the cult of the gun, and tightening gun controls.

Well, spot on of course. Public money would be better spent on increasing access to mental health services and accompanying advertising campaigns to alert people to those services and what they offer. Likewise, funding for films that don't promote gun violence and perhaps educational programmes in schools might help go a long way towards reducing the 'cult of the gun'.

It's really the third point that would have the most immediate impact, IMO; tightening controls around access to semi-automatic and automatic weapons that inflict maximum casualties in a minimum amount of time. Why would any citizen need to own assault weapons? That's a very different issue from keeping a hand gun in your house in case of home invasion. But will anything change?
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12862
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear artemisia,

Much as I hate to say it and at the risk of sounding cynical (though I'd call it realistic), I very much doubt too much, if anything, will change.

I'd really like to see the ban on assault rifles re-instated, but even that's probably out of range (so to speak.)

Regards,
John
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Javelin of Radiance



Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

30,000 people killed by guns in the US last year. In 2008 the US had 12,000 gun related homicides. Japan had 11. The US has a gun related homicide rate of 3.5 per 100,000. All the developed countries are below 1 per 100,000 with most of them below 0.5. Of all those countries the US is the only one with a huge gun lobby that spends countless millions protecting the right to own and use these weapons. Pew Research Center says views on gun laws remain unchanged since the last shooting in summer. This latest tragedy is getting the same result as every tragedy before it: outrage followed by platitudes, followed by complacency followed by another tragedy. Wake us up when the next one hits the news stands so we can all get angry again.
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
I'd really like to see the ban on assault rifles re-instated, but even that's probably out of range (so to speak.)
Regards,
John


check the old legislation........it didn't ban assault weapons, it banned
"assault-style" weapons. seemed to me, it was targeted Laughing not
at capabilities of the weapons, but how scary they looked. it was a
nice, little law that made the liberals feel good, yet didn't threaten the
conservatives.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9702
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Home-schooling is clearly the answer. Everybody should build a bunker in their back garden - like the ones that were popular during the Red scares. Except this time folks can teach their kids in them and hide out from their fellow citizens toting automatic weapons.

There will come a time when people will be amazed we ever associated in such large numbers anywhere...
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12862
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear choudoufu,

Dont see that here:

"Criteria of an assault weapon

Assault weapon (semi-automatic) refers primarily (but not exclusively) to firearms that possess the cosmetic features of an assault rifle (which are fully-automatic). Actually possessing the operational features, such as 'full-auto', is not required for classification as an assault weapon; merely the possession of cosmetic features is enough to warrant such classification as an assault weapon. Semi-automatic firearms, when fired, automatically extract the spent cartridge casing and load the next cartridge into the chamber, ready to fire again; they do not fire automatically like a machine gun; rather, only one round is fired with each trigger pull.
In the former U.S. law, the legal term assault weapon included certain specific semi-automatic firearm models by name (e.g., Colt AR-15, TEC-9, non-select-fire AK-47s produced by three manufacturers, and Uzis) and other semi-automatic firearms because they possess a minimum set of cosmetic features from the following list of features:
Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally).
Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:
Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.
Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:
Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
Detachable magazine.
Provisions of the ban

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban was only a small part (title XI, subtitle A) of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

The Act created a flowchart for classifying 'assault weapons' and subjected firearms that met that classification to regulation. Nineteen models of firearms were defined by name as being 'assault weapons' regardless of how many features they had. Various semi-automatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns were classified as 'assault weapons' due to having various combinations of features.

The Act addressed only semi-automatic firearms, that is, firearms that fire one shot each time the trigger is pulled. Neither the AWB nor its expiration changed the legal status of fully automatic firearms, which fire more than one round with a single trigger-pull; these have been regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986.

The Act also defined and banned 'large capacity ammunition feeding devices' in the ban, which generally applied to magazines or other ammunition feeding devices with capacities of greater than a certain number of rounds, and that up to the time of the Act were considered normal or factory magazines. Media and popular culture referred to these as 'high capacity magazines or feeding devices'. Depending on the locality and type of firearm, the cutoff between a 'normal' capacity and 'high' capacity magazine was 3, 7, 10, 12, 15, or 20 rounds. The now defunct federal ban set the limit at 10 rounds.

During the period when the AWB was in effect, it was illegal to manufacture any firearm that met the law's flowchart of an assault weapon or large capacity ammunition feeding device, except for export or for sale to a government or law enforcement agency. The law also banned possession of illegally imported or manufactured firearms, but did not ban possession or sale of pre-existing 'assault weapons' or previously factory standard magazines that were legally redefined as large capacity ammunition feeding devices. This provision for pre-ban firearms created a higher price point in the market for such items, which still exist due to several states adopting their own assault weapons ban."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

In addition, as I thought my wording showed (but even that's probably out of range (so to speak.)

re-instating the ban would be, in my opinion, a very small step towards what's needed, but even that small step is, I think, unlikely.

Regards,
John
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Yellowrose



Joined: 31 Jan 2012
Posts: 9
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"re-instating the ban would be, in my opinion, a very small step towards what's needed, but even that small step is, I think, unlikely."

Well said, John. Unfortunately, besides poor mental health care for the majority (and the reluctance to even talk about it) of US citizens, the education level of many is appalling, too. It is difficult to even talk about this issue with many gun owners without them spouting fallacious facts and arguments.

Being originally from Texas (and I am not bragging about this fact), I personally know many gun nuts and feel it will be supremely difficult in changing the gun culture in the US. I do have hope that it can change, though, because I have seen the drinking-n-driving attitudes change drastically in the past couple of decades.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9702
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I just cannot understand a country where gun ownership is a universal right and healthcare is a privilege."

A topical meme floating about cyberspace...
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12862
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Yellowrose (of Texas),

And then there's this: Better access to more effective mental health care. Here's a big part of the problem:

"How does society tell the truly dangerous ones from the ones who are just a little weird?

“We’re not even good at predicting minor violence. When you’re talking about preventing a mass shooting, that’s a needle in a haystack,” said Jeffrey Swanson, a professor in psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Duke University School of Medicine. “You can’t just go out and lock up all the socially awkward young men in the world.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/anguished-search-for-an-explanation/2012/12/16/183fee14-47a7-11e2-ad54-580638ede391_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost

I certainly agree with you about this:

"It is difficult to even talk about this issue with many gun owners without them spouting fallacious facts and arguments."

I've been "discussing" the problem with some such idiots on facebook. Almost everything they post is either false or a fallacy, red herrings (and all sorts of other illogical arguments) abound.

Regards,
John
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