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Isaunt
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
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 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Black, white, strawberry. Cauliflower? not saying no, as far as experience may carry one. Of every colour there are many fine whos and enough in a lap for a day at the races. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Isaunt wrote: |
| Black, white, strawberry. Cauliflower? not saying no, as far as experience may carry one. Of every colour there are many fine whos and enough in a lap for a day at the races. |
You're like a perverted Dr. Seuss.... |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
| Old Gil wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
In America, for example, because blacks are extremely powerful politically you have a PC culture. It's not because people decided to be enlightened about race. 
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But they are, compared to Korea, whether they decided to be or not. That's the point. More diverse history, more diverse culture, more diverse thinking. Whether it's because of choice or not is not the point. |
Westerners are NOT more enlightened. We're comparing apples to oranges. Westerners are just self-labeling themselves as more enlightened when they are merely different. Korea is a free democratic country. There are no Jim Crow laws, no apartheid. This is not NK where people can not leave. Koreans are free and they are an enlightened people. They are just as enlightened as Westerners. Being enlightened does NOT mean we have to be the same on each issue.
Calicoe, I answered your points. If you think your emails in the west are private then you are indeed naive. Also, people are a bit more direct in expressing their opinions in Korea and sometimes they aren't. PC culture in Korea is different from the west, as it should be.
Whether Korea is conservative or not also depends on who is making the judgment. There are Westerners who are more open-minded than you who would not have any problems with Korea and appreciate that Korea is different, indeed HAS to be different given its different geography, history and demography.
Keep in mind Korea continues to change although some will say Koreans adopt only the negative aspects of western culture. Some Westerners, however, are very close-minded and view their culture and society as superior and themselves as the only enlightened people on earth. It's an intolerant and an extremist world view that places Westerners and honorary Westerners at the top of their hierarchy. At the end of the day you are like a school bully who wants it all his way and if anyone else dares to disagree with you, to have their own culture, then the name-calling starts, they are marginalized and deemed inferior. |
Komerican, man, you've got to learn to separate yourself from your ethnic, national, cultural identity.
I'm from the south in the US. I'll be the first to jump in when some 20-something university student from the north, who has always had everything handed to them in life (and where racism is sneakier, and more PC in my opinion) starts to generalize and postulate about racism in the south. There are reasons for it, which are deeply tied to classism, and the struggle for survival within the working class. A lot of wet-behind-the-ears northerners without life experience don't understand that, and merely climb on the high horse of the "enlightenment" they were raised within.
However, reasons are not excuses. And just because there are reasons for something doesn't mean that it's acceptable. Either to me, or in general. They are still things that need to change -- disgusting, appalling things that belong in another time to a people who were not as civilized. Just because I'm from that culture doesn't mean that I can't see and admit that. In fact, it's more important that I do. I'm not about to say that it's just a result of the south's history and the working class struggle, and we should all just accept that as a difference within the culture. |
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soakitincider
Joined: 19 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Nice personality, easy to look at, not too full of yourself? I'm in.
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| calicoe wrote: |
No, I was talking about the casual way in which people invade your everyday privacy, not technology. And, I have never disregarded Korea's history in race, I just don't see it as an excuse to foment xenophobic hatred in mass rallies and elsewhere.
And I was also talking about GENDER, one of our long-running discussions. You seem to have trouble accepting the obvious about Korea's male-dominated patriarchy.
“When I travel with my husband, we avoid buses and subways,” said Jung Hye-sil, 42, who married a Pakistani man in 1994. “They glance at me as if I have done something incredible. There is a tendency here to control women and who they can date or marry, in the name of the nation.” |
Yeah, but the reality is that race/ethnicity/culture/religion almost always trumps gender.
It's why feminism in America is mostly a white women's movement. Women of a given racial/ethnic/cultural/religious group tend to have more loyalty to men within their same group than to women outside of it, and they don't want to hear about how sexist their own culture is from a bunch of white women.
It's also why foreigners (especially foreign men) aren't supposed to talk about how sexist Koreans are. Criticizing sexism in a culture other than one's own is taken as a critique of that culture.
It sucks, but that's life. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Komerican, man, you've got to learn to separate yourself from your ethnic, national, cultural identity.
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At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Komerican (yeah he annoys me too), I think that separating oneself from one's ethnic, national, and cultural identity is not really possible.
A lot of us white folks think that it is possible, but that's only because our ethnic and cultural identity is so mainstream that we take it for granted and forget it exists, so we think of ourselves as being much more neutral or impartial than we really are.
You're basically asking Komerican to think like a white person, but it doesn't seem that you're thinking like a Korean person or even a Korean-American person. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Komerican, man, you've got to learn to separate yourself from your ethnic, national, cultural identity.
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At the risk of sounding like I'm defending Komerican (yeah he annoys me too), I think that separating oneself from one's ethnic, national, and cultural identity is not really possible.
A lot of us white folks think that it is possible, but that's only because our ethnic and cultural identity is so mainstream that we take it for granted and forget it exists, so we think of ourselves as being much more neutral or impartial than we really are.
You're basically asking Komerican to think like a white person, but it doesn't seem that you're thinking like a Korean person or even a Korean-American person. |
I'm asking Komerican to think like an objective adult who is capable of going beyond his own defensiveness to condemn discrimination in all of its forms -- not just the forms that affect him, personally.
If you think that expecting a person from an ethnic background other than Caucasian to do that is really pushing things, then that's your racial condescension -- not mine.
As for assuming that all of my identities are mainstream just because yours may be, well... you don't know me or anything about me.
Last edited by I'm no Picasso on Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="redaxe"]
| calicoe wrote: |
Yeah, but the reality is that race/ethnicity/culture/religion almost always trumps gender.
It's why feminism in America is mostly a white women's movement. Women of a given racial/ethnic/cultural/religious group tend to have more loyalty to men within their same group than to women outside of it, |
No, you are wrong, it is not solely a white woman's movement anymore. That is an outdated perception. No doubt, it is and will always be a tension, the same way race and class will always be a tension. Managing multiple identities is just simply more complicated than being a white male. However, don't misunderstand those complexities by oversimplifying them for your own argument's convenience. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| calicoe wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
Yeah, but the reality is that race/ethnicity/culture/religion almost always trumps gender.
It's why feminism in America is mostly a white women's movement. Women of a given racial/ethnic/cultural/religious group tend to have more loyalty to men within their same group than to women outside of it, |
No, you are wrong, it is not solely a white woman's movement anymore. That is an outdated perception. No doubt, it is and will always be a tension, the same way race and class will always be a tension. Managing multiple identities is just simply more complicated than being a white male. However, don't misunderstand those complexities by oversimplifying them for your own argument's convenience. |
This too, while we're at it. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
I'm asking Komerican to think like an objective adult who is capable of going beyond his own defensiveness to condemn discrimination in all of its forms -- not just the forms that affect him, personally.
If you think that expecting a person from an ethnic background other than Caucasian to do that is really pushing things, then that's your racial condescension -- not mine.
As for assuming that all of my identities are mainstream just because yours may be, well... you don't know me or anything about me. |
That's my point--no one is, or can ever be, objective. White people just love to pretend that we are objective, and it's easy for us to do that because our culture is hegemonic. But our viewpoints are always tinted by our cultures, values, beliefs, and identities (which of course everyone has more than one of) and it's not possible to just take them off like you would a pair of sunglasses and suddenly see things clearly and neutrally.
That's why I have a problem with asking someone to separate himself from his identity and think "objectively." You're not really any more objective than he is, you just think you are because your culture attaches a higher value to "objective" thinking than Korean culture does.
If you're the type of person who doesn't believe in "cultural relativism" then I'm sure you will disagree with me, and that's fine. |
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DaeguKid
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| komerican wrote: |
Westerners are NOT more enlightened. |
Koreans are way more enlightened! Heck, how else could 50 million people all have the same answers to so many questions!
^ by far the funnies thing i have read here in years! |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
I'm asking Komerican to think like an objective adult who is capable of going beyond his own defensiveness to condemn discrimination in all of its forms -- not just the forms that affect him, personally.
If you think that expecting a person from an ethnic background other than Caucasian to do that is really pushing things, then that's your racial condescension -- not mine.
As for assuming that all of my identities are mainstream just because yours may be, well... you don't know me or anything about me. |
That's my point--no one is, or can ever be, objective. White people just love to pretend that we are objective, and it's easy for us to do that because our culture is hegemonic. But our viewpoints are always tinted by our cultures, values, beliefs, and identities (which of course everyone has more than one of) and it's not possible to just take them off like you would a pair of sunglasses and suddenly see things clearly and neutrally.
That's why I have a problem with asking someone to separate himself from his identity and think "objectively." You're not really any more objective than he is, you just think you are because your culture attaches a higher value to "objective" thinking than Korean culture does.
If you're the type of person who doesn't believe in "cultural relativism" then I'm sure you will disagree with me, and that's fine. |
Hey Toto -- we're not in Kansas anymore.
You're seeming more and more like one of those people who takes their "whiteness" with them. I don't know anything about you, to be fair. But have you looked around lately and noticed that "white" is not the majority here? That we are foreigners, outsiders and minorities? Thinking that whiteness makes you the be-all-end-all in the entire world makes you a target of your own discourse, there. That's true only of people who stay in their predominately white hometowns, or socialize predominately with white middle/upperclass individuals wherever they may happen to be.
I don't know what you're angling at, but my identities stretch a lot farther than just being white. I've been in a number of situations where any given one of my identities is not the majority, and where I've been forced or pushed to view my identity as an outsider would.
You can't be 100% objective, and you shouldn't be -- your point of view is what you bring to the table, and it's as valuable as anyone else's. However, a complete inability to doubt or question things that stem from your own background is just plain immature. No matter what that background is. I don't think asking people to think critically about their own culture is too much, unless we're talking about animals. And, personally, I don't view Koreans as animals. I view them as human beings who are just as capable of questioning their own culture as I am. If you think they are incapable of that, again, that's your opinion. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
Hey Toto -- we're not in Kansas anymore.
You're seeming more and more like one of those people who takes their "whiteness" with them. I don't know anything about you, to be fair. But have you looked around lately and noticed that "white" is not the majority here? That we are foreigners, outsiders and minorities? Thinking that whiteness makes you the be-all-end-all in the entire world makes you a target of your own discourse, there.
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Yes, now you're catching on. I am a target of my own discourse. Criticizing one's own culture is exactly what you're advocating, is it not?
We white people get treated better than non-white people basically everywhere on Earth, and we certainly don't surrender our whiteness and all its associated privileges when we arrive at Incheon Airport. We bring our entitlement with us wherever we go. I just think it's better to acknowledge white privilege than to deny it or take it for granted.
That way, before I whine about "discrimination" when Korean people treat me differently than they treat other Koreans (as many white people in Korea and on this forum constantly do), I will remember some of the many ways in which they actually treat me better than they treat other Koreans. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Squirrel Master
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| When your "cultural" identity makes you play the victim at every opportunity it ceases to be a valid factor in a discussion. |
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komerican
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
| Old Gil wrote: |
| komerican wrote: |
In America, for example, because blacks are extremely powerful politically you have a PC culture. It's not because people decided to be enlightened about race.
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But they are, compared to Korea, whether they decided to be or not. That's the point. More diverse history, more diverse culture, more diverse thinking. Whether it's because of choice or not is not the point. |
Westerners are NOT more enlightened. We're comparing apples to oranges. Westerners are just self-labeling themselves as more enlightened when they are merely different. Korea is a free democratic country. There are no Jim Crow laws, no apartheid. This is not NK where people can not leave. Koreans are free and they are an enlightened people. They are just as enlightened as Westerners. Being enlightened does NOT mean we have to be the same on each issue.
Calicoe, I answered your points. If you think your emails in the west are private then you are indeed naive. Also, people are a bit more direct in expressing their opinions in Korea and sometimes they aren't. PC culture in Korea is different from the west, as it should be.
Whether Korea is conservative or not also depends on who is making the judgment. There are Westerners who are more open-minded than you who would not have any problems with Korea and appreciate that Korea is different, indeed HAS to be different given its different geography, history and demography.
Keep in mind Korea continues to change although some will say Koreans adopt only the negative aspects of western culture. Some Westerners, however, are very close-minded and view their culture and society as superior and themselves as the only enlightened people on earth. It's an intolerant and an extremist world view that places Westerners and honorary Westerners at the top of their hierarchy. At the end of the day you are like a school bully who wants it all his way and if anyone else dares to disagree with you, to have their own culture, then the name-calling starts, they are marginalized and deemed inferior. |
Komerican, man, you've got to learn to separate yourself from your ethnic, national, cultural identity.
I'm from the south in the US. I'll be the first to jump in when some 20-something university student from the north, who has always had everything handed to them in life (and where racism is sneakier, and more PC in my opinion) starts to generalize and postulate about racism in the south. There are reasons for it, which are deeply tied to classism, and the struggle for survival within the working class. A lot of wet-behind-the-ears northerners without life experience don't understand that, and merely climb on the high horse of the "enlightenment" they were raised within.
However, reasons are not excuses. And just because there are reasons for something doesn't mean that it's acceptable. Either to me, or in general. They are still things that need to change -- disgusting, appalling things that belong in another time to a people who were not as civilized. Just because I'm from that culture doesn't mean that I can't see and admit that. In fact, it's more important that I do. I'm not about to say that it's just a result of the south's history and the working class struggle, and we should all just accept that as a difference within the culture. |
The South lost the Civil War and then they had about 100 years of Jim Crow. There was no "learning to separate themselves from ethnic, national, cultural identity". Sorry, but what you’ve written is total nonsense. Southerners are deeply proud of their Southern culture and deeply resent northern interference until today. But they started and lost the war, they fought tooth and nail against civil rights and lost, and they fought school integration too and lost. You're presenting a completely made up fantasy version of US history. There was no moment in US history where the white ruling class collectively said, “well it’s time to step outside of our racial identity and give the poor oppressed blacks some power”. LOL
What actually happened was a powerful minority took advantage of a very fortuitous moment in history when the nation was preoccupied by the Cold War, to negotiate more political rights for itself while threatening urban warfare if their demands were not met. Fear of these race riots eventually led to some rights being given, rights which had been promised for over a hundred years. Being open-minded had nothing to do with it of course.
Also, keep in mind that the whole civil rights movement in the US was led and won not by people who “learned to separate yourself from your ethnic, national, cultural identity.” Actually, it was led by people who were deeply in touch with their ethnic/racial and cultural identity. What you’re preaching is the exact opposite of what the civil rights movement was about.
A people that lose their identity would create of course a power vacuum into which powerful self-interested parties would fill. We would not have peace but would become basically a nation of slaves led by who? By objective disinterested folks like you? (sarcasm) No thanks. I also agree with much of what Redaxe wrote. |
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