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Update on Notarizing Canadian Documents *IN* Korea

 
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Voyeur



Joined: 19 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:12 am    Post subject: Update on Notarizing Canadian Documents *IN* Korea Reply with quote

I sent the following e-mail to the person who wrote the article in the Korea Times:Dongwook Lee

-------------------------------------

Dear Sir,

Your recent article in the Korea Times was very helpful. However, it failed to explicitly address what many teachers and Academy owners feel is the major long term concern with the new E-2 rules: problems for returning Canadian teachers.

Canadian teachers represent a large chunk of the teacher population. However, Canada is not a party to the Apostille Treaty. We therefore need to get our degrees and background checks notarized by a Notary Public. I believe that the Canadian Embassy has said that they will not provide this service. However, Notaries Public require you to be present *in-person* when they notarize a document.

The end result is that at least on paper, a long-term Canadian teacher would have to return to Canada every single year just to get their Degree and CRC notarized. This would be prohibitively expensive. Most Canadian teachers do understand the need for stricter controls. But we hope that the Ministry will find a way for us to meet those requirements without having to return to Canada every year. That is just too expensive and disruptive - both to us and the schools that we work for.

Regards,

xxxxxx

-------------------------------------

Reply:

There are two ways for Canadians to get the criminal record check.

One is by contacting the Royal Mounted Police which requires the ten finger prints and time-consuming. The other one is to contact with the local police station of his or her province which does not require finger prints but only index-based search. The Ministry of Justice accepts the latter. Once you get such a document, please bring it along to the Canadian embassy in Korea or Korean Embassy in Canada whichever is nearer to you and make a self-declaratory statement before consular officer.

If you are still not clear about this guideline, please feel free to dial me. I would be happy to answer your questions with professional courtesy. Thank you.



이동욱
법무부 출입국관리국 사무관
JD & LL.M, 미국변호사, 미국이민법변호사협회 정회원

Dongwook Lee, Esq.
Deputy Director, Ministry of Justice, Republic of Korea
Juris Doctor & LL.M, Member of NY Bar & AILA

전화(Tel): (822)-500-9197
팩스( Fax): (822)-500-9201


이메일(email):dwlee888@moj.go.kr
88lawyer@hanmail.net
88lawyer@gmail.com

-------------------------------------



Does this solve my problem? Or does he seem clueless?

1. Self-Declatory statement does not equal "notarized". Do you think this means that he is right and the translation of the Korean rules are just off - or something else?

2. Would this self-declatory statement also cover the degree as well as the CRC?

3. Didn't the Canadian Embassy specifically say that it could not help with E-2 regulations and that it did not have the manpower to do exactly what I'm being told to do here? Or am I misremembering?

I might e-mail back after I get some feedback to finetune my questions. I'll probably avoid calling as e-mails will probably be clearer given language barriers.
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blurgalurgalurga



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers bro, good work. Thanks.
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chevro1et



Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Location: Busan, ROK

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, much appreciated. Keep this thread updated with new findings, please.
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Voyeur



Joined: 19 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have taken another look at the e-mail in response.

Is it me, or does it seem like perhaps I have gotten a stock response based on a presumed question of "how do I get the CRC"? It seems that he may well be totally ignoring the question of how to meet the Apostille/Notary Public requirements while remianing in Korea. And that was the main thrust of my e-mail. Perhaps just an office assistant is responding with a stock reply. And he is from the Ministry of Justice - not Immingration. So perhaps their only concern is the CRC proper and not the Apostille/Notary angle of it.

I may just be getting paranoid, but I'm sending a follow-up:

------------------------------

Thank you for your swift response. I only have two follow up questions:



(1) Will a self-declaratory statement before a consular officer at the Canadian Embassy in Korea, attached to the original diploma and CRC, satisfy the new E-2 Visa regulations which specify that you need an Apostille or a Notary Public's notarization for BOTH documents? These documents will not be notarized or have an Apostille (since a Canadian residing in Korea has access to neither of these). They will only have the self-declaratory statement.



(2) Is the Canadian Embassy in Korea willing to provide this service? Many teachers have heard that the Embassy, fearing it will lack the personnel and man hours, is not willing to provide this service. Will the Embassy be capable of meeting the demand? There are a lot of Canadian teachers already in Korea who will need this service. And as far as anyone can tell, this self-declaratory statement at the Embassy is perhaps the *only* way for them to meet the new E-2 requirements without going to Canada.



I want to clarify that the main issue for returning Canadians is NOT getting the CRC itself. The issue is how can they meet the Apostille / Notary Public requirements when Canada is not party to the treaty, and the notarization process requires you to present yourself in person to the Notary Public (who will be in Canada).
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blurgalurgalurga



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good buddy New York Barman is a self serving, condescending douchebag.

If he has to come out and admit that he didn't do his research properly, and that he failed to realize what he was asking of us, he'll say 'i can't understand why these embassies won't help out there people,' and thus blame it all on
us.
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Ut videam



Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Location: Pocheon-si, Gyeonggi-do

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These folks from MoJ/Immi are still operating under the assumption/fantasy/delusion that the foreign embassies in Korea are willing to notarize these documents. They're not.

This guy seems a little closer to reality, though. What he seems to suggest is going to the embassy with the document, making a "self-declaratory statement" (something akin to an affidavit, "I hereby affirm under pain of perjury that this document is a true and correct copy of my criminal record report, obtained from the Podunk P.D. on blah blah blah") and having that statement notarized at the embassy. He seems to realize that the embassies won't notarize the document itself, they'll only notarize a sworn statement from you that the document is what you say it is. And apparently that's enough for them.
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blurgalurgalurga



Joined: 18 Oct 2007

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, it's enough for him, anyway. But until he becomes the Word on What's Going On, he's just another flapping pee-spout in the wind, like the other twelve versions of the Truth I've heard these last couple weeks.

he is better than most though--at least he's got pretensions of giving a f**k, which is better than the rest of the ones I've talked to.
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Voyeur



Joined: 19 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

His reply:

You can go to either Candian embassy in Korea or Korean embassy in Canada whichever is convenient to you.



If you have more specific question, please feel free to dial me. 02-500-9197. Thank you. Dongwook Lee


---------------------------

No time for a follow-up call until Wed/Thursday for me. If anyone wants to follow-up, please do.

But this vague, stock answer makes me feel like he is not answering his own e-mails and the guy who is has very little clue.
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twg



Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voyeur wrote:
His reply:

You can go to either Candian embassy in Korea or Korean embassy in Canada whichever is convenient to you.

So the "Canadian embassy doesn't do this shit" situation has changed then?

because otherwise it remains a huge pile of crap.
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Voyeur



Joined: 19 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He also never said that the embassy would "Notarize" the documents. Just a self-declaratory statement. So even if they do what he wants, is that enough?
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soju pizza



Joined: 21 Feb 2007

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MODS! Make this a sticky!
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Ut videam



Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Location: Pocheon-si, Gyeonggi-do

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voyeur wrote:
He also never said that the embassy would "Notarize" the documents. Just a self-declaratory statement. So even if they do what he wants, is that enough?

A "self-declaratory statement" (statutory declaration) is a notarized legal declaration. It is akin to an affidavit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_declaration

The Canadian Embassy newsletter states that they will provide this service. They outline the same procedure as the Immigration official for obtaining and authenticating a criminal background check inside Korea:
Quote:
For the criminal record check, an RCMP or local police certificate will be acceptable. Once a police certificate is received, applicants should to bring it to the Canadian Embassy in Seoul or to the Honorary Consulate in Busanwith a statutory declaration(available both at the Embassyand at the Consulate)to have it notarized.

http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/world/embassies/korea/embassy-newsletter-en.asp

American citizens can utilize a similar procedure at the U.S. Embassy. Remember, you are NOT asking them to notarize the background check: they won't do that. You will ask to make an affidavit before a consular officer attesting to the CBC's authenticity. The officer will place you under oath, and then notarize your signature on the affidavit. The embassy website states that they will do this: http://seoul.usembassy.org/notarial_services.html

According to the Korea Times article and the above e-mail from Lee Dong-wook, this constitutes acceptable authentication.
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88lawyer



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Ministry of Justice

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:35 am    Post subject: clarifications Reply with quote

Dear Mr. someone from Canada,
I am Dongwook Lee, the one you guys love to ridicule about.

Does this solve my problem? Or does he seem clueless?

1. Self-Declatory statement does not equal "notarized". Do you think this means that he is right and the translation of the Korean rules are just off - or something else?
--> I have never said that self-declaratory statment is equal to notarization.

---> there are reasons why Korean Immigration Service is demanding self-declaratory statement before the consular officer. That is after proper consultations with the consular officers of the embassies.


2. Would this self-declatory statement also cover the degree as well as the CRC? ---> self declaratory statement is required side by side CRC. It can never replace CRC nor degree.

3. Didn't the Canadian Embassy specifically say that it could not help with E-2 regulations and that it did not have the manpower to do exactly what I'm being told to do here? Or am I misremembering?

---> Canadian embassy specifically promised that they can help. If you are in doubt, please feel free to dial or email me so that I will relay the info about the right person for you to contact with inside the Canadian embassy.

I might e-mail back after I get some feedback to finetune my questions. I'll probably avoid calling as e-mails will probably be clearer given language barriers.

--> I will doublecheck your name and background from the DB of the Korea Immigration Service.
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Whistleblower



Joined: 03 Feb 2007

PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe we ridicule you 88lawyer but I think we analyse, albeit critically, your article from The Korea Times. This is common for academics in the West to think, analyse and formulate opinion independently. And for the majority of foreign graduates who teach in Korea to voice their opinion is natural especially when it involves a very important Visa change.

Secondly, and I think I have the support of Dave's ESL Cafe here, the Visa regulations were good in prospect but the execution of the Visa regulations were poor. It illustrates the "do now, replan, replan and then plan later" mentality of the new E2 Visa rules. This coincides with the point made above as the majority (not all) of Koreans lack critical analysis, are ethnocentric and cannot think "outside of the box" (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/02/117_18569.html) and is further confirmed by the fact that Korean academics are more interested in knowledge rather than application of knowledge. This is illustrated with the article that Koreans find foreign universities difficult and return to complete their degrees.

Thirdly, I understand that the current regulations have more influence from International Relations with other countries (such as the USA, UK, etc) than cutting illegal teachers. Thus, I hope that Korea adapts its archaic Visa rules to the 21st Century. There is a saying in English; "no pain, no gain". If Korea wishes to join the 21st Century and globalise it should try to adapt its rules. It won't be perfect and will attract questionable people but there will be the exception. It shall motivate people to join Korean society and live in this country. Look at Japan as a case study. They have some of the most relaxed Visa rules in the world. Is it perfect? Not really, but atleast they have the authority to extradite foreigners and is still in control.

Thus, all I am saying is Governmental Control is only applicable with discreet control. The Korean authority should try to motivate and gain international support with more relaxed Visa rules. Why isn't there any Visa Rules that reward those that have lived and contributed to this country for a number of years? It is quite ethnocentric. Why do Korean Hagwons have authority over the E2 Visa and not the foreigner? Is it that Koreans don't trust foreigners or am I being too negative? I guess it is ethnocentricity at its best. Why can't there be more relaxed rules compared to Japan, the USA, the UK, Australia etc?

I wait in vain for your reply.
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