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Otherside
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think the whole dual-citizenship issue relates to Korean ideas on immigration generally. Most "advanced" countries allow people to immigrate and become citizens. Countries like the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were built upon immigrants. And post-World War Two, many countries in Europe have accepted immigrants into their societies (welcomed might be a bit of a strong term in this current climate.) So much so that at times in the World Cup, 10 of the 11 players for the French football team were of African descent, and not so long ago, the Captain of the English cricket team was of Asian descent.
In Korea, on the other hand, it's ALMOST impossible to obtain even permanent residency without marrying a Korean and citizenship in terms of reality is impossible to obtain. (The only time I've heard of people gaining Korean citizenship are celebrities, i.e. Guus Hiddink, etc) I'm not saying that someone with a US/UK passport would renounce their citizenship to become Korean, but there are plenty from SE Asia who would consider it.
Hanson, your wife would be a perfect example. She chose to renounce her Korean citizenship in order to become an Australian citizen, would it even be possible for an Australian (of non-korean descent) to EVER become a Korean citizen?
Korea views the issue as black and white, you are either Korean or you aren't - and nothing can change that. While dual citizenship would be beneficial to many, I feel that only females would actually benefit (as men, would still most likely renounce their citizenship in exchange for 2 years of their life) and secondly, dual citizenship would perhaps open a can of worms regarding immigration that those in power (and the overall population, in general) would like to avoid.
Just as an interesting side note...check out this story regarding Swiss Nationality - it sounds pretty crazy coming from a "real" first world country, but compared to Korea it seems light years ahead. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7427865.stm |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Could it not be because Korea is still in a state of war? |
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thematrixiam
Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Not even dual citizenship, although that would be nice. They need to make it easier to get citizenship, period.
From what I gather, it's next to impossible to get one not married. And with being married it still takes several years before you can complete the whole processes.
I guess each country is allowed to be as strict, or paranoid, as they want when it comes to these things. But I really don't see the benefit other than personal ego.
Brain drain, loss of army brats, all that shit happens because of current bad situations around work or army. Not because of citizenship. It may however be that the citizenship is merely stopping this to occur.
Still. Wouldn't you rather, as a Country, do things a little more ethically, earn a valuable Country on it's own merit. As apposed to using techniques like mass soju propaganda, US beef scares, and citizenship trifles to pull the strings on your puppets?
Despite the heat in that last paragraph, I love Korea. I'd glady move here and work for the rest of my life. Also, if I could do that with out marrying a korean, then that only solves another problem some koreans have, Keeping their Arian blood pure.
Oh... Did I just say Arian? opps. I don't mean it, honest... At least not more than 50%...
Maybe if they changed their propaganda to be more accepting, like it is in Canada, and took out the use of mandatory slave work, I mean army duty, then shit would run a little smoother. At least from a happy citizen and/orforeigner standpoint.
If you don't get the Canada more accepting reference, I am talking about how every third commercial in Canada has a reference in some form towards accepting differences in people (race, gender, heritage, income, sexual orientaton, coffee preferences, etc.) |
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chriswylson
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| You're not Korean, and your wife is now (officially) Australian, so why should your daughter have Korean citizenship? Can't have your cake and eat it too. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| chriswylson wrote: |
| You're not Korean, and your wife is now (officially) Australian, so why should your daughter have Korean citizenship? Can't have your cake and eat it too. |
Even better question: Why couldn't my wife have kept her Korean citizenship while also acquiring an Australian one? My brother-in-law is both British and Canadian. I will certainly be getting Australian citizenship at some point in my life, while retaining my Canadian one. My wife will do the same thing but in reverse. What's the problem?
Wouldn't it be a good thing to allow my daughter to live here as a citizen should she want/choose to do so? It's basically the K-gov't telling us my daughter isn't one of "them" and isn't welcome here. She's even got that blue "Mongolian spot" on her butt to prove her heritage.
And granted, Korea's not alone doing this. My question isn't whether my daughter should have citizenship, but why the gov't feels that she shouldn't. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Hanson wrote: |
| chriswylson wrote: |
| You're not Korean, and your wife is now (officially) Australian, so why should your daughter have Korean citizenship? Can't have your cake and eat it too. |
Even better question: Why couldn't my wife have kept her Korean citizenship while also acquiring an Australian one? My brother-in-law is both British and Canadian. I will certainly be getting Australian citizenship at some point in my life, while retaining my Canadian one. My wife will do the same thing but in reverse. What's the problem?
Wouldn't it be a good thing to allow my daughter to live here as a citizen should she want/choose to do so? It's basically the K-gov't telling us my daughter isn't one of "them" and isn't welcome here. She's even got that blue "Mongolian spot" on her butt to prove her heritage.
And granted, Korea's not alone doing this. My question isn't whether my daughter should have citizenship, but why the gov't feels that she shouldn't. |
Your daughter is not Korean, because you are a foreign male. Citizenship goes through father in Korea, right? Or, am I mistaken?
That's the way it goes in many nationalistic countries. I am not saying it is right, but that's the way it works in those types of states. However, if Korea wants to advance, it will need closer ties with the West which would include making it easier for foreigners to become citizens and for Korean Americans and Canadians to be citizens and for foreigners to open businesses. This would keep more money in the economy and perhaps bring in more capital investment. I think the government knows that, but it takes time to make those changes. For the longest time, Egypt only allowed citizenship to be passed through the males. You had a situation where Syrian and Gulf Arabs got Egyptian women pregnant and abandoned a child born in Egypt to an Egyptian mother, and the mother then had to pay high school fees. Realizing that was a problem, Egypt allowed the kids to become citizens. If Egypt can do that, then Korea can. |
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chriswylson
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The gov't feels that your daughter is not Korean because... she's not Korean! The child of a Canadian - Australian couple is not a Korean to me. She was just born here, just like many other children of diplomats, military families... |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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^ OK, I get your point. I disagree with it, but I get it.
Now, back to the original topic. Why not dual citizenship? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| chriswylson wrote: |
| The gov't feels that your daughter is not Korean because... she's not Korean! The child of a Canadian - Australian couple is not a Korean to me. She was just born here, just like many other children of diplomats, military families... |
Do not many countries have a clause about children being born on their soil? |
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chriswylson
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Many countries have a clause about children being born on their soil? Unless a parent has citizenship from that country, almost none would give that child automatic citizenship.
Dual citizenship is not like collecting baseball cards to complete your collection. Other posters already answered why dual citizenship is usually not a good idea for Korea. Whether you agree or disagree about it doesn't matter because you're not Korean. The rules are for the good of the nation as a whole, not for your family. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Other posters already answered why dual citizenship is usually not a good idea for Korea |
What, other than military service and possibly the fact that Korea is technically at war, are these good ideas you speak of?
You're making this personal. Perhaps I shouldn't have put the focus on my own situation so you wouldn't feel compelled to pounce on it.
To further back up my point:
Ireland:
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Who is Eligible for Irish Citizenship
There are three ways that a person may qualify for citizenship.
Birth
Marriage to an Irish citizen
Residence
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http://www.movetoireland.com/movepag/pascitzn.htm
Canada:
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To become a Citizen of Canada, applicants must:
- be 18 years of age or older;
- be a permanent resident of Canada;
- have lived in Canada for at least three of the four years before applying (1095 days);
- be able to communicate in either English or French;
- have knowledge about Canada (history, geography, government);
- have knowledge about the rights and responsibilities of citizenship;
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http://www.rsscanadaimmigration.com/en/citizenship/obtainingcitizenship.php
USA:
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The concept of dual citizenship recognizes that a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both. The mere fact that he/she searched the right of one citizenship does not mean that he/she renounces the other.
Nonetheless, official U.S. policy has been to discourage the incidence of dual nationality. The Government accepts but does not recognize or approve of dual nationality. The Government accepts it: "only as the result of separate conflicting laws of other countries."
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Why?
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The UK does not require that you give up other nationalities when you become a British citizen, although you are free to do so if you wish.
The UK does not require that you give up other nationalities when you become a British citizen, although you are free to do so if you wish. |
Australia:
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Examples of ways in which people can become dual citizens automatically are:
a child born in Australia who is an Australian citizen at birth and is automatically a citizen of the country of birth, or citizenship, of a parent or grand-parent
or
an Australian citizen who automatically becomes the citizen of another country through marriage.
Examples of circumstances in which people apply for another citizenship are:
Australians who apply for the citizenship of another country because a parent or grand-parent was born in, or is a citizen of, that country
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Australians living and working overseas, for work or family or other reasons, who apply for the citizenship of the country in which they are living
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permanent residents of Australia who apply for Australian citizenship and are citizens of countries which allow dual citizenship.
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http://www.citizenship.gov.au/automatic-citizenship/dual-citz.htm
South Africa:
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| The Citizenship Act, (Act 88 of 1995), affected on 6 October 1995, provides for retention of South African citizenship PRIOR to acquisition of a foreign citizenship. |
http://www.sahc.org.au/citizenship/Dual_Citizenship.htm
Egypt (with a blurb about Korea):
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Under Egyptian Law, acquiring another citizenship is prohibited unless the Egyptian citizenship is surrendered. The Egyptian law requires that those who apply for another nationality inform appropriate Egyptian officials. However, there are some circumstances where it is possible to hold Egyptian citizenship alongside another citizenship:
Egyptians who have acquired a foreign citizenship may keep their Egyptian nationality if the other country permits it and if within a period not exceeding 1 year from the date he/she acquires the foreign nationality, declares his wish to retain his Egyptian citizenship.
Persons who become naturalized Egyptian citizens may keep their original nationality if the other country permits it.
However, holders of a dual-citizenship are exempt from military service and prohibited from enrolling in military and police academies or being elected to Parliament.
This contrasts with some Asian countries such as India, mainland China, Japan and South Korea. Egyptian nationals with at least one parent born in Japan will have to choose, by the age of 22, whether to keep their Japanese or Egyptian nationality. India and mainland China do not permit their nationals to hold foreign nationality. South Korea requires its adult nationals, including those with Egyptian nationality, to declare, by their early-20s, whether they want to keep their foreign or South Korean nationality.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Nationality_Law#Dual_Citizenship
And now for Korea's Dual Citizenship entry on wiki:
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The government of the Republic of Korea does not permit dual citizenship after the age of 21. Foreign citizens of Korean descent who hold dual citizenship under South Korean law and work or study in South Korea are usually compelled by the Republic of Korea to choose one or the other nationality soon after reaching that age.
This can pose a problem for South-Korean born adults with a father born in a Muslim country, because, in most cases, the child automatically acquires the father's citizenship. This can also pose a problem for adults with at least one Israeli-born parent, because they automatically acquire the parent's citizenship, under Israeli nationality law. The same applies to South-Korean-born children with at least one Moroccan-born parent, under Moroccan nationality law. Thus, the child would have to give up his or her South Korean citizenship. This also poses a problem for South Korean-born women who marry Moroccan-born men (under Moroccan nationality law) and for Koreans born in Aksai Chin.
In addition, South Korean men over the age of 18, including foreign citizens of Korean descent, are subject to compulsory military service. From a law that is effective since 2005, a dual national may not be allowed to abandon his Republic of Korea nationality until he finishes his military service, or has received a special exemption from military service. In several cases, men of South Korean descent holding a U.S. citizenship visiting from overseas have been drafted upon visiting the country, despite having never been there before and not having Korean citizenship. At least two of the aforementioned cases have involved individuals whose names had been recorded on the Korean Family Census Register, which does not automatically remove the names of former South Korean nationals, without their knowledge[1]
Unlike South Korea, nationals of most Arab countries besides Saudi Arabia permit multiple citizenship (provided, in all but several cases, the national does not hold Israeli citizenship) and allow any person living or travelling there to carry multiple passports. Saudi Arabia allows its citizens to have multiple nationality, but not the carriage of more than one passport while in the Kingdom. This is because, if a second passport is discovered, it will be confiscated[1],[2],[3],[4], and the bearer may be arrested.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_nationality_law
Even Arab countries permit dual citizenship. Why doesn't Korea? Wiki doesn't give any insight into the "why". |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:44 am Post subject: |
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From SK's Wiki:
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| Koreans tend to equate nationality or citizenship with membership in a single, homogeneous ethnic group or "race" (minjok, in Korean). A common language and culture also are viewed as important elements in Korean identity. The idea of multiracial or multiethnic nations, like India or the United States, strikes many Koreans as odd or even contradictory. |
In other words, "racist"? |
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Ramen
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| Hanson wrote: |
From SK's Wiki:
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| Koreans tend to equate nationality or citizenship with membership in a single, homogeneous ethnic group or "race" (minjok, in Korean). A common language and culture also are viewed as important elements in Korean identity. The idea of multiracial or multiethnic nations, like India or the United States, strikes many Koreans as odd or even contradictory. |
In other words, "racist"? |
That's exactly what I was thinking. |
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chriswylson
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| No. In other words, "natural". People naturally associate with those most like them. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| chriswylson wrote: |
Many countries have a clause about children being born on their soil? Unless a parent has citizenship from that country, almost none would give that child automatic citizenship.
Dual citizenship is not like collecting baseball cards to complete your collection. Other posters already answered why dual citizenship is usually not a good idea for Korea. Whether you agree or disagree about it doesn't matter because you're not Korean. The rules are for the good of the nation as a whole, not for your family. |
Hanson said the Arab countries allow it so why doesn't Korea? Egypt is the only Arab country that allows it, and it's a relatively new law. It did not exist in 2001 when I was teaching English there. They were talking about it, but it does look bad when a country that is less advanced then Korea allows it and most OECD countries allow it.
You said it is good for Korea? I disagree. The laws penalize Korean Americans and Korean Canadians and Korean Russians as well who are of their ethnicity and Korea has a low birth-rate, and it could help them
tap into skilled people from their ethnicity at least. They should at least change that. Also, if they allow foreigners who are married to Koreans to become citizens it encourages Koreans to adapt more international norms when it comes to doing business in order to compete with foreigners in the domestic market, and it's necessary for Korea's long-term growth. Anyway, the citizenship law is sexist. Why? It allows a
child of a Korean father to become a citizen, but it doesn't allow a child who has a British father to be a citizen. The biggest loser is Korea when it comes to this. They need people with creative ideas. |
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