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Discussions about legal issues regarding visas
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T-J



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yonshinnae

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:21 pm    Post subject: Discussions about legal issues regarding visas Reply with quote

I had wondered up to this point if ATEK and Prof Wagner had poked the tiger hard enough to get its attention. I guess this opinion piece on the Korea Times answers that.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2009/03/137_40819.html
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Bondrock



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering when someone would post this article. It seems the MOJ has addressed the complaint through this public forum (The Korea Times).

Essentially, according to the article, asking for reasonable requirements (such as drug tests or HIV tests) before giving a work visa to someone is not a human rights violation.

I was a bit disappointed in the reasoning that "the US" does it too, but still the MOJ has clearly stated that anyone who desires a work visa is not entitled to the same rights as Korean citizens.

My guess is that these same requirements are and will be handled differently for family visas. That seems right to me.
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marlow



Joined: 06 Feb 2005

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And according to the act, it is also the obligation for the heads of education institutions to verify criminal records of ``Korean'' employees.


Sounds right to me. This should be extended to non-E2 visa holders. This means any person on any visa should have their criminal record cleanliness verified if they are working at an educational institute. By the institute not immigration.
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Milwaukiedave



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Bucheon

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bondrock wrote:
I was a bit disappointed in the reasoning that "the US" does it too, but still the MOJ has clearly stated that anyone who desires a work visa is not entitled to the same rights as Korean citizens.

My guess is that these same requirements are and will be handled differently for family visas. That seems right to me.


Bond,

I think Lee made a good point that Korea is entitled to make the rules of entry for foreigner and that foreigners are not guaranteed the same protections under the Korean Constitution. This is one major point ATEK has overlooked in terms of their campaign to change the law.

The treatment of E-visas versus the treatment of F-visas turned into a pretty big spat and was used as a means of divisiveness through claims that one group was being discriminated over another. Again, it goes back to the fact that there are no protections for foreigners and Korea sets their own entry standards as a sovereign nation. Those that claim E-visas and F-visas are equal clearly have a difficult time seeing the difference between the two.
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Young FRANKenstein



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In addition, the act on protecting youth from sexual offense totally bans ``Korean'' nationals with a history of sexual offenses from lecturing and getting any form of employment in youth education institutions.

And according to the act, it is also the obligation for the heads of education institutions to verify criminal records of ``Korean'' employees.

Rolling Eyes Yeah, all those Korean hagwon teachers have their criminal records checked. It bans Koreans with a sexual offense history from teaching? You mean they aren't just transferred to another school district to continue abusing kids?

Quote:
Crimes by foreigners reported to the Prosecutors' Office surged by 265 percent over the past five years since 2003. Drug-related offences by foreigners reached 976, compared with 9,888 for Korean nationals. The crime rate based on the total foreigners here outstrips that of Korean nationals based on the total population by four fold. Under the circumstances, it is inevitable for the Korean government to take firm measures against such a disturbing trend.

And how many of those foreigners are E-2 English teachers and how many of those foreigners are Chinese-Koreans or Nigerians or wherever? And besides talking percentages doesn't tell us much. How about per capita, which is more indicative of problems?
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marlow



Joined: 06 Feb 2005

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Young FRANKenstein wrote:
Rolling Eyes Yeah, all those Korean hagwon teachers have their criminal records checked. It bans Koreans with a sexual offense history from teaching? You mean they aren't just transferred to another school district to continue abusing kids?


This is another problem that really shouldn't concern us. I guess the MOE is at fault here. Until a person qualifies for residency or citizenship they are at the mercy of visa laws.
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icnelly



Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Young FRANKenstein wrote:
Quote:
Crimes by foreigners reported to the Prosecutors' Office surged by 265 percent over the past five years since 2003. Drug-related offences by foreigners reached 976, compared with 9,888 for Korean nationals. The crime rate based on the total foreigners here outstrips that of Korean nationals based on the total population by four fold. Under the circumstances, it is inevitable for the Korean government to take firm measures against such a disturbing trend.

And how many of those foreigners are E-2 English teachers and how many of those foreigners are Chinese-Koreans or Nigerians or wherever? And besides talking percentages doesn't tell us much. How about per capita, which is more indicative of problems?


This was one of points that prof. Wagner touched on. The K gov. doesn't keep criminal statistics beyond the index of "foreign," so there is no way calculate crime related to E-2 teachers.
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Young FRANKenstein



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marlow wrote:
I guess the MOE is at fault here.

No guess about it.
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Milwaukiedave



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Bucheon

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing about Lee's letter that I forgot to mention, the section on foreigner crime is so poorly worded is difficult to understand. I think that part of his argument is very weak. My guess is he is mostly referring to drug possession (not sure what other crimes foreigners get caught for besides the really icky ones). At best, the guy could have laid out how crime increased (if it indeed did and I'm skeptical about that) quite a bit better.
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Sleepy in Seoul



Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As an official from the Ministry of Justice responsible for visa issuance, I would like to express my view after reading a Feb. 12 Korea Times article, ``Testing Teachers for Drugs and AIDS,'' by Prof. Benjamin Wagner.


This is merely one Immigration official's opinion. And we all know how much variation there is in Immigration rules depending upon the office in which they work, the mood they're in, the time of day, whether or not an envelope filled with cash has been handed over and many, many other possibilities.

Quote:
The government is ... trying to respect their [foreign language instructors] rights.

What the hell is trying? Do or do not; there is no 'try'.
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T-J



Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yonshinnae

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sleepy in Seoul wrote:
Quote:
As an official from the Ministry of Justice responsible for visa issuance, I would like to express my view after reading a Feb. 12 Korea Times article, ``Testing Teachers for Drugs and AIDS,'' by Prof. Benjamin Wagner.


This is merely one Immigration official's opinion.

Quote:

Lee Bok-nam is director of the Border Control Division, the Korea Immigration Service

This is not just a desk jockey at your local immigration office.
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Straphanger



Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Location: Chilgok, Korea

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In other word, foreigners do not have the right to demand that a country guarantees equal rights with the nationals of the country regarding entry into the country.

He could have stopped writing right there. Or he could have just said "Welcome to Korea."

I totally respect him for clarifying his position, though, but the reality of the situation doesn't change. This is Korea. We're subject to Korean law. And ATEK needs to learn the moral of that old Russian folktale - When you're into it up to your neck, don't open your mouth.
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Bondrock



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Milwaukiedave wrote:
Bondrock wrote:
I was a bit disappointed in the reasoning that "the US" does it too, but still the MOJ has clearly stated that anyone who desires a work visa is not entitled to the same rights as Korean citizens.

My guess is that these same requirements are and will be handled differently for family visas. That seems right to me.


Bond,

I think Lee made a good point that Korea is entitled to make the rules of entry for foreigner and that foreigners are not guaranteed the same protections under the Korean Constitution. This is one major point ATEK has overlooked in terms of their campaign to change the law.

The treatment of E-visas versus the treatment of F-visas turned into a pretty big spat and was used as a means of divisiveness through claims that one group was being discriminated over another. Again, it goes back to the fact that there are no protections for foreigners and Korea sets their own entry standards as a sovereign nation. Those that claim E-visas and F-visas are equal clearly have a difficult time seeing the difference between the two.


What I meant here is that the argument that "the other guy does it" is weak logic. That said, I fully agree that any country has the right to make "reasonable requests" of those who apply for visas. In this case, asking for HIV and drug tests for teachers or even other work visas seems reasonable.

To be clear: all visas are different. To be more clear: a visa does not make one a citizen!
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Sleepy in Seoul



Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T-J wrote:
This is not just a desk jockey at your local immigration office.

I am aware of that. However he clearly stated that these were his views, not the official Immigration views. Although perhaps he is writing the rules. It would also be interesting to find out exactly what his position is responsible for. It is a fancy-sounding title though.
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Yu_Bum_suk



Joined: 25 Dec 2004

PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly ATEK, Mr Lee (this one - not that idiot Lee Yong-chan) is very right. How I wish that ATEK had thrown their weight behind trying to change the visa cancellation and renewal process instead of something as pointless as this. It makes us look like a bunch of disappointed pot-heads instead of professionals who want to clean up a badly corrupted employment market.
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