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The Libyan War
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject: The Libyan War Reply with quote

This deserves a dedicated thread.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/libya-international-military-coalition-launch-assault-gadhafi-forces/story?id=13174246

Quote:
More than 112 Tomahawk cruise missiles struck over 20 targets inside Libya today in the opening phase of an international military operation the Pentagon said was aimed at stopping attacks led by Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi and enforcing a U.N.-backed no-fly zone.

...

The first air strikes, in what is being called Operation Odyssey Dawn, were launched from a mix of U.S. surface ships and one British submarine in the Mediterranean Sea at 2 p.m. ET, Vice Adm. William E. Gortney told reporters at a Pentagon briefing.


http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/18/canadian_century_watch_libya_no_fly_zone

Quote:
Around the time that Barack Obama was assuring U.S. lawmakers that American planes would not be used to enforce the no fly zone in Libya, our neighbor to the north was announcing just the opposite: Canada will deploy fighter jets to the Middle East. Prime Minister Stephen Harper heads to the joint African Union-Arab League summit on Libya tomorrow, where he'll join other Western leaders from France, Britain, Germany, and the United States in discussing next steps.


Canada is supposed to be a democracy. Shouldn't there be some debate on this? How about in the US?

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/19/libya
Quote:
There's one other difference between Iraq and Libya worth noting: at least with the former, there was a sustained, intense P.R. campaign to persuade the public to support it, followed by a cursory Congressional vote (agreed to by the Bush White House only once approval was guaranteed in advance). By contrast, the intervention in Libya was presidentially decreed with virtually no public debate or discussion; it's just amazing how little public opinion or the consent of the citizenry matters when it comes to involving the country in a new war. That objection can and should be obviated if Obama seeks Congressional approval before deploying the U.S. military. On some level, it would be just a formality -- it's hard to imagine the Congress ever impeding a war the President wants to fight -- but at least some pretense of democratic and Constitutional adherence should be maintained.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/17/fox-news-poll-voters-dont-want-military-sent-libya/

Quote:
Despite believing the United States should always promote democracy, most American voters don’t want their military sent to Libya.

A Fox News poll released Thursday found 59 percent of voters think the primary goal of U.S. foreign policy should “always be promoting democracy.”

At the same time, 65 percent oppose the U.S. military getting involved in Libya.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/19/world/africa/19terror.html?_r=2&hp

Quote:
The United States is bracing for possible Libyan-backed terrorist attacks, President Obama’s top counterterrorism official said on Friday.


^ Gadhafi has a history of terrorism. Now that he is facing certain defeat, will he try and go out with a bang (or two?)?

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=212887

Quote:
French war planes destroyed four Libyan tanks in air strikes to the south west of the Libyan city of Benghazi on Saturday, Al Jazeera television reported, quoting sources.


Ok, the West will easily destroy him. I doubt this will go on all that long. Hope? I thought the Iraq war wouldn't last long.


Last edited by mises on Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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stilicho25



Joined: 05 Apr 2010

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to when we stop our allies Bahrain and Yemen from killing their own people.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely! Gadaffi should be free to butcher as many of his own people as he sees fit without the neo- colonialist French and American
fascist forces preventing it.

U.N. doesn't need to bother about the will of the people. so much for Democracy. We don't need no stinking vote
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Canada is supposed to be a democracy. Shouldn't there be some debate on this? How about in the US?


Unlike Canada, the US is not supposed to be a democracy. The US is a democratic republic. For those who don't remember their PoliSci 101, that means periodic elections are held to choose leaders. In the next election the constituents endorse the decisions made--or throw the bums out.

However, I agree with the larger point about a public discussion. It would be politically prudent (but not required) to have a discussion before commiting our forces. In this case, there just wasn't time. Two weeks ago the opposition was in control of...80%? of Libya. Now they are on the edge of collapse. Act now (and hope it isn't too late) or live with the consequences of Qaddafi back in full power and ready, willing, and able to slaughter his people before turning on the international community.

I fully endorse the multilateral method taken to organize Odyssey Dawn. It is the way international military efforts should be done.
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hondaicivic



Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
Canada is supposed to be a democracy. Shouldn't there be some debate on this? How about in the US?


Unlike Canada, the US is not supposed to be a democracy. The US is a democratic republic. For those who don't remember their PoliSci 101, that means periodic elections are held to choose leaders. In the next election the constituents endorse the decisions made--or throw the bums out.

However, I agree with the larger point about a public discussion. It would be politically prudent (but not required) to have a discussion before commiting our forces. In this case, there just wasn't time. Two weeks ago the opposition was in control of...80%? of Libya. Now they are on the edge of collapse. Act now (and hope it isn't too late) or live with the consequences of Qaddafi back in full power and ready, willing, and able to slaughter his people before turning on the international community.

I fully endorse the multilateral method taken to organize Odyssey Dawn. It is the way international military efforts should been done.




I didn't know the military-industrial complex decided to send their lackeys into Dave's forum in order to get support for this war....
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NSMatt



Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hondaicivic wrote:



I didn't know the military-industrial complex decided to send their lackeys into Dave's forum in order to get support for this war....


Yes, that's it. The 'military complex' dispatches propaganda teams onto an international ESL message board to bolster support for a war. I guess they control both left and right wing governments because this coalition has both.

The leftists are caught between a rock and a hard place on this one. Human rights and freedoms good, war bad. What to do?
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a kid I always enjoyed Colonel Gadaffi's Fried Chicken.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I didn't know the military-industrial complex decided to send their lackeys into Dave's forum in order to get support for this war....


Rather than a quick quip about the military-industrial complex, how about spelling out your position?
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's a "hondaicivic"?
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somebody Birtley, the alJazeera reporter in Beghazi, says Qadaffi forces that attacked the city yesterday seem to be in retreat and that the road west of town is lined with destroyed military vehicles. He says the people in Benghazi say they think the tide has turned. (Already?)

No fighting reported in Tripoli so far today (11am there).

Signed,
M-IC Lackey Very Happy
(Haven't heard 'lackey' since the ChiCom propaganda of the 50's.)
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Lackey! I think he pitched for the Mets. Right hander I believe.

So France Britain and the U.s. have attacked. Has Mo made a statement yet. Is he planning on going into exile and where would it be.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admiral Mullens made a statement saying the no-fly zone is 'effectively' in place. I saw a clip of it on alJazeera, but so far none posted on the internet that I've found. From the alJazeera Live Blog: "Admiral Mike Mullen, the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, says there is no sign of Libyan regime aircraft in flight, a sign that they may have been destroyed or their facilities too badly damaged to use." (1:43pm)

'daffy has made a 15-minute speech on radio (someone says so no one can pin point where he is and drop a missile down his robe). Nothing new in the speech, just more imperialist crusader talk and arming the masses...Reporter Birtley says in Benghazi people responded by saying they already have weapons and are coming after him.

At this point, things are looking positive.

Interesting question: Resolution 1973 does not make clear if 'protecting the population' includes protecting/aiding the militia fighting 'daffy's forces.
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Space Bar



Joined: 20 Oct 2010

PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
Canada is supposed to be a democracy. Shouldn't there be some debate on this? How about in the US?


Unlike Canada, the US is not supposed to be a democracy. The US is a democratic republic. For those who don't remember their PoliSci 101, that means periodic elections are held to choose leaders. In the next election the constituents endorse the decisions made--or throw the bums out.

Yes, but the 'democratic' part does not end with the election, it only begins there. The public servant chosen by constituents must continue to be responsive to them; he cannot just do whatever he wants for the next four years.

Quote:
I fully endorse the multilateral method taken to organize Odyssey Dawn. It is the way international military efforts should be done.

Like the multilateral way we did Iraq, Afghanistan, etc?

I think hondaicivic may be on to something.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/20/us-libya-weapons-jana-idUSTRE72J1Y020110320

Quote:
Libya's government has begun distributing arms to more than one million people and will complete the operation within hours, the state news agency reported on Sunday.

Jana news agency quoted sources in Libya's defense ministry as saying they "expected the operation to end in the next hours to arm more than a million men and women."


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/world/africa/21libya.html?_r=2&partner=MYWAY&ei=5065

Quote:
A day after American and European forces began a broad campaign of strikes against the government of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, the Libyan leader delivered a fresh and defiant tirade on Sunday, pledging retaliation and saying his forces would fight a long war to victory.


A long war (that he will ultimately lose) is Qaddafi's best outcome.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mises wrote:
Hope? I thought the Iraq war wouldn't last long.


If the UN simply assists the rebels and then lets them take control, how long could it take? Remember, the Egyptians have been arming the Libyan rebels for a few weeks.

mises wrote:
Libya's government has begun distributing arms to more than one million people and will complete the operation within hours, the state news agency reported on Sunday.


Ah, yes, the state news agency. Lots of assumptions packed in that sentence. First, Qaddaffi wants people to think he has a million people on his side (Tripoli, is home to 1.7 million of Libya's 6.4 million people). Second, he wants us to think he has a million small arms stored. Third, he wants us to swallow the idea that he can distribute a million small arms in hours (12? 24?) while suffering from withering air strikes.
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