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Gyeongju University
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shimokitazawa wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
As we see by my links professors who are actually qualified to be professors back home can get the same compensation and become involved in the promotion system.




And many Koreans (and Taiwanese, Chinese and Japanese) go to the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia and receive tenure without being citizens of those countries.


Lets see some examples then. Seriously I am curious. A few names of such Korean profs and where they teach in the US or Canada will do.

Make sure these people are NOT permanent residents however. Just foreign workers on a sponsored work visa will do.

I do mean FULL TENURE TRACK POSITIONS as a PERMANENT Facutly member, including all benefits.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
big_fella1 wrote:
Shimokitazawa wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
As we see by my links professors who are actually qualified to be professors back home can get the same compensation and become involved in the promotion system.


False. There may be cases here and there, but not many.

You're misleading the readers into believing that this is standard, when it's not. I've worked with people from the U.S. and Canada who were professors back home but put on the same contracts as those with B.A. degrees in Korean universities.

You're not worth any more time discussing the issue. And of course we won't change each other's minds.

And many Koreans (and Taiwanese, Chinese and Japanese) go to the U.S., Canada, U.K. and Australia and receive tenure without being citizens of those countries.


If you become a professor at an Austrian University, you automatically get Austrian citizenship.



Ok you will need to back this up as it sounds highly unlikely.

No country I know of grants citizenship to someone based on the jopb they have in the country.

I would think the opposite is true: a person can become a full tenure track prof if they become a citizen (or permanent resident first)..

Checking this site:

http://www.wien.gv.at/english/administration/civilstatus/citizenship/obtain.html

It seems you are wrong.

the only thing that is even remotely close to what you are claiming is here: http://www.wien.gv.at/english/administration/civilstatus/citizenship/discretion.html

I seriously doubt getting hired as a professor is considered an exceptional achievement in Austria....


Actually it looks like I might be wrong. Section 25 of the Austrian Citizenship act covered Austrian citizenship for professors from non European Economic Area citizens and their families as you can see at: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/standardsetting/nationality/National%20legislation/AUSTRIA-En.pdf

However when you look at the Austrian Government Nationality Act at:
http://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10005579 (German) you will see there is no section 25.

Also I do owe you an apology for being rude in a previous post. I was just very frustrated that I am trying to support my family here and you are saying that it is okay to treat non-Koreans differently to Koreans. This attitude steals from my Korean family as I am their sole financial supporter.

I am sick of racism and nationalism both the positive and the negative, and yes I know as a white foreigner I experience more positive racism than many other people here.

Korea is a great country, but like our home countries it isn't perfect but if we could change the view that positive and negative racism is okay, it would be an even better one.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, you were not rude, you were just a bit aggressive and from your response I can see why that would be. I understand the pressures you are talking about very well.

As for treatement, if you mean employment options, it is normal that you, as a foreign worker have more limited options vice a citizen. If you are married to a local I assume you are on a residency visa (F-series) so that would be a F2 or a F5 (or the newer visa they are discussing). If you have a F5, and IF you have the same qualifications as the Koreans you work with and IF you do the same job then you should indeed expect similar benefits and compensation. All of this depends on you have the equivalent qualifications and working in the same job as similar Korean co-workers otherwise the comparison is really void and a moot point.

Furthermore, if you are on a F-visa, your options are a lot more varied than someone on a more restrictive sponsored foreign worker visa. For example you can teach private lessons legally and earn a very good living from that along with another job. You can also do other things besides teaching if you have the qualifications for it.

As for changing Korea and the racism (negative aspect) and preferential treatement white foreigners get well that happens over the long term! Heck I was there a comparatively short 11 years and since we left I go back at least once per year and I can honestly say that in that short time span, Korea has changed a heck of a lot!

All you can do is work on your immediate situation which means your work and your circle of friends and Korean in-laws. You cannot change the country, thats up to Koreans as its their country afterall.

Best of luck to you out there anyway. Very Happy
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shimokitazawa wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
As we see by my links professors who are actually qualified to be professors back home can get the same compensation and become involved in the promotion system.


False. There may be cases here and there, but not many.

.


I suggest going back to school and learning the difference between "can" and "will". As my statement stands it is absolutely correct.

As far as not "many" goes there are over 3000 FULL-TIME foreign professors teaching at universities here.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/325872.html


As the article states there were 3432 FULL-TIME foreign professors teaching at universities in South Korea as of 2008

And it would seem that their salary is quite competitive

Quote:
At a minimum in the range of 80 million won, the annual salary for foreign professors is around two times the starting salary for a Korean professor at a national university,


So as I stated if one has qualifications and experience back home they can do quite well here. If on the other hand all one has is a B.A or Masters and can speak English at a native level then not so much.


Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/325872.html


As the article states there were 3432 FULL-TIME foreign professors teaching at universities in South Korea as of 2008

And it would seem that their salary is quite competitive

Quote:
At a minimum in the range of 80 million won, the annual salary for foreign professors is around two times the starting salary for a Korean professor at a national university,


So as I stated if one has qualifications and experience back home they can do quite well here. If on the other hand all one has is a B.A or Masters and can speak English at a native level then not so much.


How interesting...see this is what happens when someone injects actual FACTS into a discussion....Well done.
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Shimokitazawa



Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/325872.html


As the article states there were 3432 FULL-TIME foreign professors teaching at universities in South Korea as of 2008

And it would seem that their salary is quite competitive

Quote:
At a minimum in the range of 80 million won, the annual salary for foreign professors is around two times the starting salary for a Korean professor at a national university,


So as I stated if one has qualifications and experience back home they can do quite well here. If on the other hand all one has is a B.A or Masters and can speak English at a native level then not so much.


How interesting...see this is what happens when someone injects actual FACTS into a discussion....Well done.


FACTS?

Give me a break! I don't buy a lot of what I've read there. First, what constitutes a "Professor" in this article? Second, where are all these 80 million a year jobs advertised? I've been watching The Chronicle for years, and other higher ed. recruiting sites and have never seen jobs that pay that much. Nor do I personally know anyone that has ever been paid that kind of money. Do you know anyone that even has a job like this? Probably not, is my guess.

I think there are a lot of questions to be answered here with this article, their sources and how they obtained the data / criteria. Using that as proof or "FACTS"? - Maybe you're the ones who need to go back to school!

Listen, you two can argue with me all you want but the bottom line is Korean universities have created a two-tiered system, one for local teachers and one for foreign instructors, that is essentially academic apartheid. There's a huge push for Korean universities to "globalize" and hire qualified foreign instructors, but they don't want to treat them equally as far as compensation, support and benefits are concerned.

I'm going to repeat what I wrote earlier since some people here can't quite grasp it: Korea is a great place for unqualified western native English speakers to come and teach English and get university conditions.

However, it's a terrible deal for those who are qualified, since Korean universities put these teachers on staff-type contracts where they earn half of what similarly qualified Korean teachers do and receive none of the research support and benefits Korean teachers get while carrying twice the course load - with no full summer or winter vacations!

I'm surprised you would argue that this isn't the case when a quick look around at the job postings for foreign teachers at Korean universities confirms what I've written.

At any rate, the discussion has run its course.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats fine but so far only Urban has backed up his posts with links that show employment facts.

Now that two tiered system you mention is in place in most countries that hire foreign workers. Its not apartheid and the use of that word is SHAMEFUL and INSULTING to those people who have suffered through the real Apartheid. I said this before and will say it each time anyone uses such terms out of context.

As for your claims, please back them up with some sort of facts. I worked in a University in Korea for a few years, worked on the hiring committees for several positions, networked with professors of other institutions. I have seen the types of jobs Urban has shown in his links. They do exist for those foreign professors that are ACTUALLY qualified to be professors. Still, unless they are permanent residents or citizens they will not get the same access to tenure positions which of course is NORMAL and PAR FOR THE COURSE in most countries that hire foreign profs.

You can argue your position until you are blue in the face it will not change the FACT that foreign professors are not forced into an academic apartheid. I will say it one last time: some posters on this very board work as tenure track professors in Korean universities but you know what, those positions are not numerous because, and this is blindlingly obvious, tenure is a RARE things in itself.

You are arguing from a very emotional and angry perspective and I can understand the frustration you seem to feel. However, your posts in this thread have been sadly laced with innapropriate terms such as apartheid or slavery. That drains a lot from your posts and makes you sound dramatic when you could make your point in a far cooler and factual manner.

As a final point: do foreign professors face challenges in Korea? You bet! Culture shock would be one of the big issues I imagine as would working in a different academic environment.
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drcrazy



Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Location: Pusan. Yes, that's right. Pusan NOT Busan. I ain't never been to no place called Busan

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a question. Does anyone think that this thread will be on topic again before 2013?
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Shimokitazawa



Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
Its not apartheid and the use of that word is SHAMEFUL and INSULTING to those people who have suffered through the real Apartheid. I said this before and will say it each time anyone uses such terms out of context.


Pretty dramatic and emotional, aren't you.

PatrickGHBusan, I've read a lot of your posts here over the last few years and you're as pollyanna as they come and quite argumentative also. You can argue with people, like you have here, about what you believe is the true situation, but what you're preaching just isn't congruent with the reality of many foreign instructors teaching at Korean universities.

In sum, nothing you say here will change my perception, observations and experience of the situation facing foreign teachers here.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is your perceptions are just that: perceptions.

You chose to ignore the broader reality and the actual systemic reasons that regulate foreign employment. You infused this debate with dramatics from the get go when you used innapropriate terms.

Urban did some legwork and provided a couple of interesting links that cite some facts, you brushed those off as irrelevant and countered with "I know, these are my perceptions and experiences". That just does not fly sorry.

I am not emotional by the way, I am just tired of people using innapropriate terms to qualify their life experiences like it has some sort of link with things like slavery. That is sad in itself because it denotes a clear lack of perspective and judgement for one to even think using such terms is appropriate.

I do not dispute foreign teachers face challenges in Korea, heck I dealt with many of them when I was working at the University. What I challenge, and you have provided NO evidence to back up your arguments, is that Korea relegates foreign professors in some sort of academic dungeon where they are trapped and exploited. The REALITY just does match this outrageous comment of yours (apartheid, slavery).

I am aware nothing will change your perception, thats not the aim of my responses here by the way. I sussed out you were unable to change your opinion right when you rolled in here with your wild claims of apartheid and slavery. What my responses were aimed at, and what the responses of Urban and others were aimed at is this: showing others who may read this thread that the situation is not some sort of 7th level of hell where foreign professors are shackled and exploited.

Take care out there and be careful that the apartheid cops don't nab you and ship you to a wayguk jail where you will be forced to teach for less.
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to drag this up but did any former employees have their Korean Teachers Pension cancelled and paid into National Pension?

If this is you and you worked for 12 months you are entitled to severance. Did you receive it?
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drcrazy



Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Location: Pusan. Yes, that's right. Pusan NOT Busan. I ain't never been to no place called Busan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see they have an ad again. So, how are things there now?
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big_fella1



Joined: 08 Dec 2005

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2.4 Million for a PhD plus 1 year teaching or a Masters plus three years teaching, they don't want people from E2 countries.
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Brooks



Joined: 08 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apartheid means apartness in Afrakaans, so it is an appropriate term.
It was coined by the writer Ivan Hall in his book Cartels of the Mind, which was about Japan. It certainly applies to Korea as well.

If foreign teachers have their own office where they are all together, that certainly is a kind of segregation.


I agree with ShimoKitazawa, although I wouldn't say slavery, but some jobs in Korea aren't easy, to be sure.
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