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"We don't need you to do that." -Trayvon Martin Ca
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:45 am    Post subject: "We don't need you to do that." -Trayvon Martin Ca Reply with quote

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/20/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=us_c1

Quote:

Justice Department, FBI to probe Florida teen's death


Federal prosecutors and the FBI have opened an investigation into the killing of an unarmed teen by a neighborhood watch volunteer in Florida.
The death drew protesters Monday to the courthouse in Seminole County, north of Orlando, to demand justice for Trayvon Martin, the 17-year-old who was shot and killed last month while walking back to his father's fiancee's house in Sanford.
The African-American teen's parents said Monday that they believed race was a factor in their son's death, and the Congressional Black Caucus had called for a federal investigation, saying local police have shown "blatant disregard for justice."
Late Monday, the Justice Department said it would dispatch officials to Sanford to investigate and "to address tension in the community."
Assistant State Attorney Pat Whitaker told the students it would take several weeks to look at the case, but that the "investigation of the Sanford police needs to be greatly supplemented," Jasmine Rand, the FAMU professor, said after the meeting.
The state attorney's office also said a voice analysis would be conducted on 911 calls from the night of the shooting to determine who was yelling for help, students said.
Zimmerman, 28, called police around nightfall on February 26 to report a suspicious man in his neighborhood.
"Something's wrong with him. Yep. He's coming to check me out," Zimmerman told a police dispatcher in a 911 call released Monday. "He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Send officers over here."
The teen started to run, Zimmerman reported. When he said he was following, the dispatcher told him, "We don't need you to do that."
Shortly afterward, neighbors began calling 911 to report a fight, then a gunshot. By the time police arrived, Trayvon lay dead. He was carrying a bag of Skittles and an iced tea that he had purchased at a nearby convenience store, and was headed back to his father's fiancee's home.
Martin said he's "positive" that it's his son's voice that can be heard screaming for help in the neighbors' calls.
"It's heart wrenching, because those actually were my son's last words," he said. "And to hear his last words being cries of help, is devastating. It tears me apart as a father."


Seems to be the case of the week.


Last edited by Captain Corea on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, gotta feel for the father...and the kid...what a way to go
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“Mr. Zimmerman’s claim is that the confrontation was initiated by Trayvon,” Police Chief Bill Lee said in an interview. “I am not going into specifics of what led to the violent physical encounter witnessed by residents. All the physical evidence and testimony we have independent of what Mr. Zimmerman provides corroborates this claim to self-defense.”
To claim self-defense, someone has to show there was danger of great bodily harm or death, Lee said. “Zimmerman had injuries consistent with his story,” Lee said


http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446_p2/trayvon-martin-case.html#storylink=cpy
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goes to show the problems with vigilantism. The last thing I want in my neighborhood is some untrained guy walking around with a tec-9 questioning people.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kid was trying to get away from this nut. The story brought tears to my eyes. Better that this neighbohood ha hired private patrol. These citizen patrol things always attract the wanna-be cop types. A real tradgedy.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll hold full judgement until all facts are in, but as it seems, Zimmerman is dirty. Still, how did he get the injuries? As one person interviewed on CNN pointed out: All the boy had to do was answer the question as to why he was there and it probably wouldn't have escalated like it did. It is apparent exactly that conversation took place (by the dead kid's own girlfriend). I'm guessing that the kid shot didn't take kindly to being asked such a question and escalated things until a fight broke out. In fact, I'll bet that's exactly how it went down. If that is the case, then despite what Zimmerman did to follow the kid -- however stupid that was -- then legally, Zimmerman would have a leg to stand on if the kid turned on him and cracked him in the back of the head, for example.

Let's not forget that there is reportedly an unknown witness to this who hasn't said anything yet (so I've read, anyway).

The things that truly bug me about this case are:

1. Every picture we see of this unfortunate soul who was killed are of when he was like 14. We aren't allowed/shown photos of him that are recent. This supposedly little 17 year-old boy was reported to be over 6'3" tall.

2. The police either have some hard evidence they are not sharing, or they are trying to cover something up. (see #3)

3. It is not being widely reported, but I read that Zimmerman's father is a retired Virginia magistrate judge and his mother a court clerk.

4. The media bias in these stories is unprecedented. The one photo we get of Zimmerman is him in an orange jail jumpsuit. The photos we see of the "boy" who was killed show him as a bright, smiling 14 year-old in a football jersey.

5. Zimmerman is half Hispanic, yet some major media outlets refuse to cite this. He's as much of a minority as Obama is, in fact. Even more disgusting, the story angle went from being a black vs. white thing, to at least one black guest on a major news outlet saying that Zimmerman not being white didn't matter, because he represented white people being that he was from a gated community.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and I should add an argument for "Stand Your Ground" laws. And yes, in this case, it even involves a black man, but this time, he was the shooter and was wronged greatly:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20120306/NEWS/120306021/Acquitted-shooting-racist-thugs-WDM-man-new-face-Iowa-gun-rights

http://www.freelibertywriters.com/sean-mcclanahan/2012/2/22/stand-your-ground-lose-everything.html
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really not a fan of Captain Corea's title.

Anyway, TNC at the Atlantic has been blogging about the Trayvon Martin case pretty regularly. He believes the investigation was a sham.

Quote:
Again, I don't know that Zimmerman will ever do a lick of jail time, or even see a court room. But what angers people is not simply that Zimmerman might get off, but that the Sanford police would conduct a shoddy investigation, claim it was thorough, and then claim that all who objected were compromised by prejudice:

Quote:
Our investigation is color blind and based on the facts and circumstances, not color. I know I can say that until I am blue in the face, but, as a white man in a uniform, I know it doesn't mean anything to anybody.


This investigation wasn't one. It was a sham, an homage to the bad old days of Southern justice. Lee should resign.


Read the full post in the link for his argument.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I follow a lot of gun forums, and based on what I see, people are either reserving judgement until all of the facts come to light, or think Zimmerman was in the wrong just based on what we know.

I also think that this is not a "stand your ground" debate, as Zimmerman pretty much lost that right when he pursued. There is another possibility, as I mentioned earlier, but I think that's probably not likely.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampfox10mm wrote:
I'll hold full judgement until all facts are in, but as it seems, Zimmerman is dirty. Still, how did he get the injuries? As one person interviewed on CNN pointed out: All the boy had to do was answer the question as to why he was there and it probably wouldn't have escalated like it did. It is apparent exactly that conversation took place (by the dead kid's own girlfriend). I'm guessing that the kid shot didn't take kindly to being asked such a question and escalated things until a fight broke out. In fact, I'll bet that's exactly how it went down. If that is the case, then despite what Zimmerman did to follow the kid -- however stupid that was -- then legally, Zimmerman would have a leg to stand on if the kid turned on him and cracked him in the back of the head, for example.

Let's not forget that there is reportedly an unknown witness to this who hasn't said anything yet (so I've read, anyway).

The things that truly bug me about this case are:

1. Every picture we see of this unfortunate soul who was killed are of when he was like 14. We aren't allowed/shown photos of him that are recent. This supposedly little 17 year-old boy was reported to be over 6'3" tall.

2. The police either have some hard evidence they are not sharing, or they are trying to cover something up. (see #3)

3. It is not being widely reported, but I read that Zimmerman's father is a retired Virginia magistrate judge and his mother a court clerk.

4. The media bias in these stories is unprecedented. The one photo we get of Zimmerman is him in an orange jail jumpsuit. The photos we see of the "boy" who was killed show him as a bright, smiling 14 year-old in a football jersey.

5. Zimmerman is half Hispanic, yet some major media outlets refuse to cite this. He's as much of a minority as Obama is, in fact. Even more disgusting, the story angle went from being a black vs. white thing, to at least one black guest on a major news outlet saying that Zimmerman not being white didn't matter, because he represented white people being that he was from a gated community.


What right did this Zimmerman even have to ask that kind of question though? If the kid doesn't want to answer that's his right. This idea that having a vigilante on patrol packing heat makes a neighborhood safer is absurd. A neighborhood watch thing is good if they keep an eye out for crime, but to go out interrogating people is absurd.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming all Zimmerman did was question the young man, he had every legal right to do so. Smart? No. Legal, yes. If you are suggesting one man has no right to approach another and ask what he is doing, then trust me, that dog won't hunt.

What is upsetting to many people is that they want the ability to start a physical altercation with someone like Zimmerman to defend their pride (only now they realize they could get shot for doing so, and it scares them). A good solution would be to not escalate things (obviously, that would have been a good suggestion for Zimmermam, as well). Fighting first would be illegal, and always has been. No, the youth didn't have to answer, either. Someone started a fight after that, though. Who? That is the question. If it were Zimmerman, then he should fry.

Some want to be able to say, "If you follow me, then you are a racist and therefor it is perfectly ok for me whomp your ass. I don't need to explain what I am doing here because I assume you are racist simply for following me." Although we do not know exactly if this is how it went down, general opinion of those interviewed shows many people feel this way. Well, guess what..... that is a good way to start yourself down a road where you pay for your pride with your life. People have to learn not to escalate things.... on both sides.

There are still many unknowns that the media has allowed to be muddied. Justice will come. And the police should be reprimanded heavily for a pretty crappy job.


Last edited by Swampfox10mm on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampfox10mm wrote:
Assuming all Zimmerman did was question the young man, he had every legal right to do so. Smart? No. Legal, yes. If you are suggesting one man has no right to approach another and ask what he is doing, then trust me, that dog won't hunt.

What is upsetting to many people is that they want the ability to start a physical altercation with someone like Zimmerman to defend their pride (only now they realize they could get shot for doing so). A good solution would be to not escalate things (obviously, that would have been a good suggestion for Zimmermam, as well). Fighting first would be illegal, and always has been.

Some want to be able to say, "If you follow me, then you are a racist and therefor it is perfectly ok for me whomp your ass. I don't need to explain what I am doing here because I assume you are racist simply for following me." Although we do not know exactly if this is how it went down, general opinion of those interviewed shows many people feel this way.

There are still many unknowns that the media has allowed to be muddied. Justice will come.


http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/trayvon-martins-killer-was-looking-for-trouble-and-found-it/254815/

I think this will answer some of your questions. Zimmerman called 911 46 times, including calls that kids were playing in the street or that two black males were near his communities gate.

in the 911 narrative, Martin runs away from Zimmerman, and Zimmerman starts to chase him despite a plea from the 911 dispatcher not to do so. If Zimmerman had shot Martin at this point, chasing him down, is there any reasonable grand juror who would conclude that Zimmerman is immune from prosecution?

"These assholes. They always get away," Zimmerman told the dispatcher just before he killed Martin. By establishing evidence of an aggressive state of mind, by creating a vigilante-type motive on the part of Zimmerman, this statement arguably vitiates the language of the statute that permits the use of deadly force only when a person "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."

"The lawyer, who took an affidavit from the girl, quotes the girl on the cellphone as saying that Trayvon was walking home from the store and had temporarily taken refuge from the rain. He then began walking again, when he tells her, according to Crump, "I think this dude is following me." "She tells him, 'Baby, be careful, just run home,' " Crump said. According to the girl, Trayvon says, "I think I lost him" then moments later says, "He is right behind me again. I'm not going to run, I'm going to walk fast." Crump said "she hears another voice, 'What are you doing around here?' Trayvon says, 'Why are you following me?' " At that point, according to the girl, Travyon is pushed and his voice changes."

Most of the evidence doesn't support your supposed scenario.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calling 911 is not a crime. Keep in mind the context that there were supposedly a great many problems with robberies/break-ins by blacks in the area. Even still, it does sound excessive and strange. Then again, I have never worked neighborhood watch in that part of Florida, And therefo have not had reason to call 911, either. I am sure the judge/jury will examine it all very closely.

As mentioned, I think Zimmerman is dirty. I am taking issue with your post before, stating that he had no right to follow the boy.

The girl's statement will prove interesting as it is examined and disected to suss out the truth from fiction. Even still, her statements are far from the smoking gun they are made out to be.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swampfox10mm wrote:
Calling 911 is not a crime. Keep in mind the context that there were supposedly a great many problems with robberies/break-ins by blacks in the area. Even still, it does sound excessive and strange. Then again, I have never worked neighborhood watch in that part of Florida, And therefo have not had reason to call 911, either. I am sure the judge/jury will examine it all very closely.

As mentioned, I think Zimmerman is dirty. I am taking issue with your post before, stating that he had no right to follow the boy.

The girl's statement will prove interesting as it is examined and disected to suss out the truth from fiction. Even still, her statements are far from the smoking gun they are made out to be.


I wasn't talking legal rights, if you that's what you thought, I just meant in general what right does this guy have to go around packing heat questioning anybody he feels likes and following people when the dispatch told him not to. I'm just questioning the rationale behind vigilantism.
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Swampfox10mm



Joined: 24 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it very well may be that he was acting as a vigilante. I agree.

But it was perfectly within Zimmerman's rights to:

1. Carry a weapon (he had a legal permit).
2. Follow the guy and ask questions.

It is also well within my rights to walk up to a gang of thugs on a streetcorner in Chicago and ask them what they are doing standing around. Would that be smart? Obviously not. Illegal? No. What Zimmerman did was not smart, and I am confident he will pay if it is proven he started the physical altercation, or used excessive force.

Of course, it could be proven a hate crime, too.

The scary thing is that some people want to call it a hate crime just to approach a black male and ask him what he is doing


Last edited by Swampfox10mm on Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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