Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

US Soldiers Pose w Body Parts in Afghanistan
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
luckylady



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:58 am    Post subject: US Soldiers Pose w Body Parts in Afghanistan Reply with quote

The paratroopers had their assignment: Check out reports that Afghan police had recovered the mangled remains of an insurgent suicide bomber. Try to get iris scans and fingerprints for identification.

The 82nd Airborne Division soldiers arrived at the police station in Afghanistan's Zabol province in February 2010. They inspected the body parts. Then the mission turned macabre: The paratroopers posed for photos next to Afghan police, grinning while some held and others squatted beside the corpse's severed legs.


full read here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-afghan-photos-20120418,0,5032601.story


I just keep wondering where in the U.S. these soldiers grew up, what kind of family life they had, what kind of education, all that contributed to these kinds of deplorable actions.

Then I read some of the comments in the LAT story; vicious, mind-boggling remarks vilifying the reporting of these incidents, others which find no fault whatsoever with the soldiers' actions and I question the future for all of us as humans.

Whatever we do to the environment pales in comparison to how we treat each other. War may be war, but to continue to degrade and disrespect after death is a different level altogether which borders on depravity and imo, mental illness.

Did the soldiers come into the military like this or is this what happens to them afterwards? Has American society created these people or is war - just or unjust - to blame?

Will it always be like this?

What will it take to get the U.S. - and others - out of Afghanistan?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is terrible, and I condemn these soldiers' actions.


But neither should we be naive. This happens in every war. In WWII US Marines were accustomed to sending Japanese skulls home to loved ones.

Quote:
I just keep wondering where in the U.S. these soldiers grew up, what kind of family life they had, what kind of education, all that contributed to these kinds of deplorable actions.


I would say we should start the analysis at more immediate and traumatic events, say, the firefights the soldiers experienced and moving backwards to the indoctrination of boot camp. You know, lets acknowledge that these men are active warriors and that has something to do with their misconduct. Lets acknowledge that this is war, and has always been war, and that it cannot be sanitized, even when conducted exclusively by drone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
yodanole



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We come from a culture that packs picnic baskets for public hangings and women belong to the winner of the knife fight. Not really surprised that we have our pictures taken with the corpses of John Dillinger or the James Gang.

That said, others have done much worse. Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yodanole



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good grief, maybe you don't get out much. Deplorable? Definately. If you think this is bad, try Googling "The Rape of Nanking" or "The Holocost".

Gotta love your sense of humor. Earth has more pressing problems.

"Then I read some of the comments in the LAT story; vicious, mind-boggling remarks vilifying the reporting of these incidents, others which find no fault whatsoever with the soldiers' actions and I question the future for all of us as humans.

Whatever we do to the environment pales in comparison to how we treat each other. War may be war, but to continue to degrade and disrespect after death is a different level altogether which borders on depravity and imo, mental illness".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
luckylady



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the responses so far prove my initial point - that these kinds of acts have happened before and have been widely condemned; if not at the time of their occurrence, certainly in modern times.

hence, if someone grew up in such context where such actions were considered unacceptable, what would convince them otherwise?

does the U.S. military (or any military for that matter) "undo" acceptable behavior to otherwise normal people? or does it truly indoctrinate individuals into a mindset that anything and everything is ok, that much shouldn't be talked about or it will prove unacceptable?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

luckylady wrote:
the responses so far prove my initial point - that these kinds of acts have happened before and have been widely condemned; if not at the time of their occurrence, certainly in modern times.

hence, if someone grew up in such context where such actions were considered unacceptable, what would convince them otherwise?

does the U.S. military (or any military for that matter) "undo" acceptable behavior to otherwise normal people? or does it truly indoctrinate individuals into a mindset that anything and everything is ok, that much shouldn't be talked about or it will prove unacceptable?


When we throw our boys into harm's way, we risk them to such fates. You keep asking where members of the US military learned barbarism. I am telling you: in Afghanistan and other foreign posts throughout US adventurism's tenure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
yodanole



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most sensible way to conduct a war would be for the antagonists to sit in a circle and sing "Kum bay ya, kum bay ya...", followed by joining hands and and having a rousing chorus of "We are the world". No doubt!

The only point the responses have proven is that you have naive/idealistic expectations, possibly to the point of absurdity.

The US military does not train warriors for these activities. They are of no strategic or tactical value. They are the result of a more base human nature. We all have our darker side. Few are prompted to show their better side in times of stress.

One Truth is inalterable. "Hard times call for hard men".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yodanole



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the future holds for us as humans...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eyFiClAzq8
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: US Soldiers Pose w Body Parts in Afghanistan Reply with quote

luckylady wrote:


What will it take to get the U.S. - and others - out of Afghanistan?


The taliban throwing down thier weapons and giving up.

Personally I like the fact that in the areas of Afghanistan secured by the USA and its alllies have little girls that go to school and learn to read and write and also the women can leave thier homes if they want to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
luckylady



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: US Soldiers Pose w Body Parts in Afghanistan Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
luckylady wrote:


What will it take to get the U.S. - and others - out of Afghanistan?


The taliban throwing down thier weapons and giving up.

Personally I like the fact that in the areas of Afghanistan secured by the USA and its alllies have little girls that go to school and learn to read and write and also the women can leave thier homes if they want to.


oh please. the Taliban were murdering slaughtering and otherwise causing a great deal of mayhem long before 9/11 and the U.S. just stood by and did nothing.

of course it's good to hear some (yes, only some) rights have been restored to women, but the battle back in the U.S. is raging in full swing to take them away again - but that's another thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
luckylady



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
luckylady wrote:
the responses so far prove my initial point - that these kinds of acts have happened before and have been widely condemned; if not at the time of their occurrence, certainly in modern times.

hence, if someone grew up in such context where such actions were considered unacceptable, what would convince them otherwise?

does the U.S. military (or any military for that matter) "undo" acceptable behavior to otherwise normal people? or does it truly indoctrinate individuals into a mindset that anything and everything is ok, that much shouldn't be talked about or it will prove unacceptable?


When we throw our boys into harm's way, we risk them to such fates. You keep asking where members of the US military learned barbarism. I am telling you: in Afghanistan and other foreign posts throughout US adventurism's tenure.



I'm asking where our military learned it was acceptable behavior - even desirable in order to be accepted among their peers - to deface, demean, mutilate and otherwise disrespect the dead.

these aren't "boys" they are men - and women - adults, who have their own minds and consciouses to adhere to - how is it they would participate in such acts, even to the point of being proud, taking photos, and not have the slightest idea how unacceptable their behavior is to society at large?

how would they feel if the same was done to their own families back home? does that not matter?

so are these acts condoned by the hierarchy, unless reported on, or is it something brought into the military by the soldier him/herself?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course when the Taliban was stoning women the U.S.. did nothing neither did Canada or
Britiain or china or India. or the Netherlands on and on..

What the troops did is despicable but it is not their training nor their nationality. Other soldiers from other countries do similar things but they do not have the media focus that the U.S. does.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

luckylady wrote:

I'm asking where our military learned it was acceptable behavior - even desirable in order to be accepted among their peers - to deface, demean, mutilate and otherwise disrespect the dead.

these aren't "boys" they are men - and women - adults, who have their own minds and consciouses to adhere to - how is it they would participate in such acts, even to the point of being proud, taking photos, and not have the slightest idea how unacceptable their behavior is to society at large?

how would they feel if the same was done to their own families back home? does that not matter?

so are these acts condoned by the hierarchy, unless reported on, or is it something brought into the military by the soldier him/herself?


War is hell. There are acts of barbarism by every side in any war. Japanese officers in WW2 beheaded POWs and were proud of it. The samurai also collected heads and noses as tangible evidence of victory. There are cases of GIs in WW2 who gunned down unarmed POWs. I'm glad it wasn't another case of soldiers harassing civilians.

Most soldiers in modern times act relatively civil compared to the past. This isn't as wide-spread or instituted now because that kind of shit doesn't fly in the 21st century. It isn't "desirable" because no commander would want that kind of PR nightmare.

Put yourself in their shoes. They've been indoctrinated, trained, and conditioned to kill and dehumanize the enemy (makes it easier to kill) then they're sent to war where they're under constant enemy fire, they see their buddies get shot, they don't have the same basic comforts (sleep, comfy beds, regular showers) you and I take for granted.

The Taliban are especially hard to deal with because they use guerrilla tactics where they use the locals to blend in and attack without warning. It's extremely stressful because they don't know when and where an attack could come. Often times they can't even see the enemy. A soldier in an interview said it was like fighting ghosts.

Would you act differently if you were put through the same thing? Would you be even able to retain the same rationale and mindset after that? Maybe it's different for women, but as a guy who's been in the military, I can't honestly say I wouldn't act the same way if I were in their shoes. The guy just tried to kill me and my buddies.

I recommend the book On Killing for a deeper look into a soldier's psychology in combat. Not having war is the only way to stop this sort of thing all together.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
luckylady



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fermentation wrote:
Would you act differently if you were put through the same thing? Would you be even able to retain the same rationale and mindset after that? Maybe it's different for women, but as a guy who's been in the military, I can't honestly say I wouldn't act the same way if I were in their shoes. The guy just tried to kill me and my buddies.



I think there are 2 issues here - one is about being able to kill as an aggressor by making a decision that it is them or us, and act upon it; and the other is to react in an actual battle that is a life or death situation. I believe as a thoughtful member of society, this is a responsibility that we all face.

the U.S. military goes far and beyond this way too often; invading other countries, violating air space of soveriegn nations, executing individuals with drones etc.

be that as it may, what is different now regarding the historical events other posters have mentioned, and that we are all aware of, is never before in the history of civilization has there been the ability, the opportunity if you will, for individuals to have knowledge of and be aware of past events in such a way as to understand what war is about.

that being the case, there is also knowledge and awareness as to what might be expected and anticipated and what is considered to be unacceptable under any circumstances - and disrespect for the dead is certainly one of those unacceptable acts.

could it be that those who commit such acts have themselves crossed a line mentally that signals a breakdown possibly past a point of no return?

it seems to me while these acts are certainly to be condemned, any soldiers who behaved in such a manner should immediately be relieved of duty and placed under psychiatric observation for ptsd, as well as their superiors who overlooked the signs of mental breakdown in their command.

flippant remarks such as "war is hell" and so on only serve as pathetic attempts to dispel the notion that these kinds of acts are preventable, even while regrettable.

it is that same kind of mentality that gave us Robert Bales, who certainly should have been identified and placed on leave before he acted the way he did, althought that is a different topic altogether.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paddycakes



Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "f*ck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2013 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International