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US: Strike on N. Korea Possible if Nuclear Test Held
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Patrick Bateman



Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Location: Lost in Translation

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:

So these magic prototypes have remained hidden and secretly tested?

Where are they? Next to the robo-troopers?

And who is to say that South Korea doesn't have a bunch of secret stuff hidden away? Maybe a bunch of neutron rays that can blast artillery rounds out of the air?

Please, the indigenously developed material from N.Korea in no way indicates they have anything close to on par with us.


Before this Streelrails I really thought we were on the same page.

But sadly, you didn't pay attention to the Ironman documentary, nor the expose Crysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crysis). I bet Tom Clancy has also written something about this as well.

On a serious note, I'm sure you saw the popular news story a few days ago about the prototype aircraft that could travel at Mach20(!). If these are the types of things the U.S. government/military makes public, I cannot imagine what they keep secret.

Compare that to the pitiful amount of in-flight training a NK pilot receives due to a lack of fuel.


Last edited by Patrick Bateman on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reggie wrote:
The southbound flow of millions of refugees down highways and byways would slow down response time to the North Korean advance. So would the sheer chaos of it all. Plus, think about how many American soldiers and would-be South Korean soldiers live in Seoul. Having American bases in the middle of the city is begging for an attack on the city.

The American and South Korean military failures over the past decade don't exactly inspire confidence. Sorry.


Are you arguing that the "problem" artillery is that it can cause enough devastation to clear a path for the advancing NK groud units?

Most ROK units and the US 2nd Division aren't in Seoul.

Quote:
But somehow South Korea is going to magically outdo the Israelis on a massive scale and shut down North Korean artillery in a matter of hours?


I don't think anyone's arguing that. But I doubt the effectiveness of their artillery and comparing it to Hezbollah isn't accurate. I'd be more comparable to any force that has used artillery in conventional uses.

fosterman wrote:

1: nothing, but they threaten to level the city daily. maybe just to prove a point? and start a war? why not ask Kim?


I think you're assuming that the dude is just crazy and wants to see his country destroyed. Using a nuke would ensure his destruction.

I might have been wrong about the nukes though.
Quote:
U.S. officials say North Korea may already have an arsenal between 12 and a “few dozen” far more advanced weapons


So it's likely they have operational nukes.

I do think fosterman makes a point on the delivery method. The ROK military is confident in it's advantage in conventional warfare but with the 천안함 incident, the Norks showed creativity in sneak attacking in a way they didn't expect.

I think the best chance the Norks have in delivering a nuke is through commando infiltration. A bomber would be likely to get shot down while their missle systems don't seem too reliable. Still it begets the question, "Why would they use nukes?"
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SMOE NSET



Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let’s see according to fosterman North Korean “can fly over Seoul in a little plane and drop a Little Boy”

Let’s check the facts:
North Korea has nuclear weapons and detonated them underground sure, but no delivery system for real world uses.
Also, Little Boy weighed 9,800lbs, a Cessna’s maximum payload limit is less than 1,300lbs. What little aircraft were you thinking they could use? Do you think they could really hijack a Korean Air plane? Heck, they won’t even let you carry on bottled water much less a NUCLEAR DEVICE!

He says a small artillery attack with missiles and bombs as well. Well considering bombs would need aircraft and the border is heavily guarded with anti-aircraft missiles (take a drive near the border next time and look up into the mountains and you can see them.). The plane wouldn’t get 5meters over the 38parallel before being shot down.

Missiles need preparation as well and the North is watched night and day by satellites. The U.S. and South Korea will notice when a missile hatch is being opened. Modern cruise missiles take 5 minutes to prepare. Imagine how long theirs take.

Rockets on the back of trucks also need to be prepared. It takes 5 minutes to set-up the multiple rocket launcher vehicles the North use. Like I said, the North is heavily watched with satellites and just a few lined up, preparing to launch, aiming at the South would be easily seen and dealt with.

Artillery would be the only way this “surprise attack” could happen in your fantasy. Estimates say they could fire off 4,400 rounds in the first minute and hit Seoul. IF, and that is a big IF all of the officers are in on it, none of the 40 year old munitions are duds, and all of them follow through and obey orders. Once that first rally is shot, you can bet they will have return fire on them with much bigger weapons before the first round lands in Seoul; weapons that can actually go into their bunkers and blow them up from the inside out unlike their primitive blow up on impact weapons.

In regards to the U.S. military bases in Seoul. Do you mean the ONE major base, Yongsan? Most of the U.S. military personnel are stationed out of range of their artillery.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually the nuclear delivery to Seoul by air wouldn't be that hard. NKorea could just fly some cargo plane with the bomb over to China or some other country that accepts its air traffic (I assume cargo flights exist between the two nations) At which point it could fly from China to Seoul. Heck, they might even want that because it would at least make the situation more confusing and diplomatically tense.

Likewise with a ship-borne delivery.

But that's not the point. The point is the retaliation. What was the last nation that started a war purely for the purposes of losing by going down in flames in some sort of suicidal fantasy?

Even suicide bombers believe that their actions are part of a final victory.
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fosterman



Joined: 16 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:


I absolutely despise people like you who come on these boards, spout off a bunch of ignorant fear-mongering, and cause a bunch of innocent people to get worked into a frenzy because of what people like you write.


calm down English teacher.
I understand you consider yourself to be the Armchair war enthusiast, someone who tries to read as much as he can on war. I get it.
and you get all flustered when someone questions you because after all this is your past time and you consider yourself pretty knowledgeable on the subject.
Ok fine. what ever.


I am not saying South Korea or USA military can't defeat The North
I never said that.
I have stated a couple times already that if we went to war, we would win. because we are the better unit. it's obvious.
what I am saying, and I have kept saying is, a surprise rogue attack on seoul to wipe it out in one operation is VERY POSSIBLE.
i am not saying it will end the war, I am just saying it could flatten the city and kill millions of people.
we are sitting ducks here.

and yes, USA can wipe out pyeong yang in one blow too if they wanted to

all I am saying is, if a plane carrying A LITTLE BOY Atomic bomb in 1945 could cause that much damage in one single drop, I think it would be possible for the Norks to do it on Seoul if they wanted to.
I am NOT saying South Korea or USA can't do the same.
of course they can.. I am not here debating USKF abilities.
I am here telling you what the NORKS can do it If they wanted to.

14 lb of plutonium will be enough to replicate a bomb which was dropped on nagasaki. you think North korea have that? I do.

now they would need a delivery device? to carry a atomic bomb
Weight 9,700 pounds (4,400 kg)
Length 120 inches (3.0 m)
Diameter 28 inches (710 mm)

wouldn't take much at all. a simple one engine plane would do.

boom!

please tell me how it's impossible.
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Zyzyfer



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
A conflict with NKorea would be a conflict against a uniformed conventional army, attempting to invade another nation, and backed by an enemy government. The rules of engagement would be significantly different.


http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-military-desperate-to-be-handed-just-one-solid,27770/

Smile
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fosterman



Joined: 16 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Actually the nuclear delivery to Seoul by air wouldn't be that hard. NKorea could just fly some cargo plane with the bomb over to China or some other country that accepts its air traffic (I assume cargo flights exist between the two nations) At which point it could fly from China to Seoul. Heck, they might even want that because it would at least make the situation more confusing and diplomatically tense.

Likewise with a ship-borne delivery.

But that's not the point.


no, that is my point. my point is. it's possible.

and who is not to say an atomic bomb is not already in south korea?
wouldn't be hard to move one through their tunnels, 10 years ago or even 20 years ago. so now it just become a lot easier to drop the bomb.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have stated a couple times already that if we went to war, we would win. because we are the better unit. it's obvious.
what I am saying, and I have kept saying is, a surprise rogue attack on seoul to wipe it out in one operation is VERY POSSIBLE.
i am not saying it will end the war, I am just saying it could flatten the city and kill millions of people.
we are sitting ducks here.


Then your scenario might as well apply to any city around the world. "Rogue Elements" could get their hands on a nuclear device and detonate it in a major city.

Name one place around the world that couldn't happen?

But you weren't just talking about rogue elements getting their hands on a nuclear device.

You were talking about a push button artillery bombardment involving every single piece in the NORk army and a million men swarming over the border.

You aren't contributing anything to this discussion. You are talking about a scenario that could apply to any major city at any time. You are also talking about a scenario that you yourself admit would be suicidal for the Norks. What does that add to it? It's like me saying, America could put W. Bush back in the White House and he might just decide to drop 500 nukes on North Korea. It's not impossible, but it would never happen and one could have that doomsday scenario for any country.

Quote:
calm down English teacher.
I understand you consider yourself to be the Armchair war enthusiast, someone who tries to read as much as he can on war. I get it.
and you get all flustered when someone questions you because after all this is your past time and you consider yourself pretty knowledgeable on the subject.
Ok fine. what ever.


It's not the questioning, it's the questioning without comparable or greater knowledge of the subject. It's like me going up to a medical doctor and calling their diagnosis rubbish because of an episode of 'House' I watched.

Before you spout off opinions, you should have the humility and honesty to examine what you know and determine whether you might need to read up a little more. Heck at least Reggie seemed vaguely aware of military concepts. But some of the stuff you said would just get you laughed at if you suggested it to military experts.

Are our students qualified to speak about American or British culture because of some 5 minute PPT we gave them?

Be humble. Go read a book.
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Patrick Bateman



Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Location: Lost in Translation

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fosterman wrote:

now they would need a delivery device? to carry a atomic bomb
Weight 9,700 pounds (4,400 kg)
Length 120 inches (3.0 m)
Diameter 28 inches (710 mm)

wouldn't take much at all. a simple one engine plane would do.

boom!

please tell me how it's impossible.


Physics.
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fosterman



Joined: 16 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:


Before you spout off opinions, you should have the humility and honesty to examine what you know and determine whether you might need to read up a little more. Heck at least Reggie seemed vaguely aware of military concepts. But some of the stuff you said would just get you laughed at if you suggested it to military experts.
.


and who are you? the Ex war strategist for the us military turn hakwon teacher? ok, sure.. why not..
Quote:
You aren't contributing anything to this discussion. You are talking about a scenario that could apply to any major city at any time. You are also talking about a scenario that you yourself admit would be suicidal for the Norks. What does that add to it?


It adds my scenario of an attack which is possible.
sure it can happen in any major city around the world. but we are not living in those cities we happen to be living 50 kms from North Korea. so we are talking about that.
if we were living 50kms from the gaza strip we might discuss tactical operations from the Palestinians or Israelis.

Quote:
It's not the questioning, it's the questioning without comparable or greater knowledge of the subject. It's like me going up to a medical doctor and calling their diagnosis rubbish because of an episode of 'House' I watched.

you an expert are you? Rolling Eyes

Quote:
You were talking about a push button artillery bombardment involving every single piece in the NORk army and a million men swarming over the border.


no I never said a 1 million man army crossing the boarder.
I have said, tens of thousands of rockets and missiles pointing to seoul all being deployed at the same time, and while that is going on, then we started to add other senarios, but

while the chaos is errupting over the city, the decoy is now in place, and then it's very possible to have a plane drop the mother load.
and I still believe a decoy of 10's of thousands of rockets is not needed.
I am just trying to let you know that north Korea can detonate an atomic bomb here. it's very possible. just like it's very possible for some rogue state or group to drop one on NYC if they have one.
but attaching it to a missile would be much harder than dropping one from a plane.

Quote:
Then your scenario might as well apply to any city around the world. "Rogue Elements" could get their hands on a nuclear device and detonate it in a major city.

Name one place around the world that couldn't happen?


precisely. that's my point. we are sitting ducks here. and it doesn't help we are only 40kms away from the deployment zone.


Quote:
Before you spout off opinions, you should have the humility and honesty to examine what you know and determine whether you might need to read up a little more. Heck at least Reggie seemed vaguely aware of military concepts. But some of the stuff you said would just get you laughed at if you suggested it to military experts.


yeah, I wonder when the guy who came up with the idea to build a trojan horse and hide some men inside it to infiltrate the palace if he was actually laughed at?

probably was right?

you would have said "are you crazy"? they will never fall for that.
10 years they tried to break through that palace, and then something as stupid and simple as building a horse brought troy to it's knees.

ever hear the saying "An idea so crazy it just might work"

deception of war. a very powerful tool

but you probably agree more with Clausewitz

I am more inclined to agree with Sun Tzu
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's important to consider what North Korea has to gain by "leveling Seoul" (assuming they can). There are no real strategic gains by doing so. If their goal is to conquer South Korea, then they have to capture Seoul as the city is of obvious strategic importance. Destroying the infrastructure defeats the purpose. They'll get no political points either.

If they don't intend to capture Seoul and take over South Korea, they still gain nothing other than retaliation from the ROK and US. Leveling Seoul will result in the leveling of Pyongyang.

fosterman wrote:


no, that is my point. my point is. it's possible.

and who is not to say an atomic bomb is not already in south korea?


C'mon man. Now you're just talking fantasy. If you're going that route I can just as easily say South Korea has been secretly building nukes and has one aimed at Pyongyang, Toko and Beijing. Who knows right?

There's also the issue of Taekwon V concealed underneath the Blue House. Shh...that's top secret intel I've acquired in the Army. Don't tell anyone.
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fosterman



Joined: 16 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fermentation wrote:
I think it's important to consider what North Korea has to gain by "leveling Seoul" (assuming they can). There are no real strategic gains by doing so. If their goal is to conquer South Korea, then they have to capture Seoul as the city is of obvious strategic importance. Destroying the infrastructure defeats the purpose. They'll get no political points either.

If they don't intend to capture Seoul and take over South Korea, they still gain nothing other than retaliation from the ROK and US. Leveling Seoul will result in the leveling of Pyongyang.

fosterman wrote:


no, that is my point. my point is. it's possible.

and who is not to say an atomic bomb is not already in south korea?


C'mon man. Now you're just talking fantasy. If you're going that route I can just as easily say South Korea has been secretly building nukes and has one aimed at Pyongyang, Toko and Beijing. Who knows right?

There's also the issue of Taekwon V concealed underneath the Blue House. Shh...that's top secret intel I've acquired in the Army. Don't tell anyone.


why would they burn seoul to the ground? because the US has decided to invade the North. so North Korea will not go down without bring as many people down with them.

Quote:
C'mon man. Now you're just talking fantasy

am I? look...

Quote:
The Blue House Raid

Main article: The Blue House Raid
On January 21, 1968, a group of 31 North Korean military soldiers was sent to South Korea by Kim Il-sung to kill President Park Chung-hee. A firefight began when the commandos were just 800 yards from the Blue House (the South Korean Presidential Palace). In all, 68 South Koreans were killed and 66 were wounded, including about two dozen civilians. Three Americans also died and three were wounded.


how did these guys get so close with the USA patrolling the border?
North koreans have been coming in and out of south korea for decades!
and god knows what they have brought through for possible future attacks. I am sure North Korea have safe houses here, and they have chemical, biological and maybe. JUST MAYBE. WMDs
seriously it's not hard to move people under ground undetected, or cargo, it's done everyday along the mexican border, canadian borders, across the adriatic coast into Italy , cubans into usa, etc etc..
you telling me, the North Korea Military can't move people or cargo across it's own mountains? LOL
come on don't be naive
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fosterman wrote:
Captain Corea wrote:


Show us an instance of a city being leveled by bombardment.

Now, what were the factors involved? Who controlled the air? The supply lines?


that is irrelevant. it doesn't matter who controls the air, the sea or the land
it doesn't matter about supply route, getting food the soldiers, or anything like that. because I am not talking about a war.
I am talking about a silent rogue attack on seoul. from a stationary position by means of rockets, missiles, and bombs.
the navy, the airforce, the army would not even be deployed.
you seem to be confused as to the resources needed to wage an attack.



Quote:
just a small plane flying over seoul as thousands do everyday, and one just happens to drop " A LITTLE BOY" or maybe a couple of them.
kaboom. it's that simple.
imagine if the terrorists had nukes when they hijacked those planes on 911, or the terrorists had nukes and just dropped them on NYC. that's how easy it is to drop a bomb. it's making it which is the hard part, not dropping it.
the Norks have already made them. we know that. and we know dropping one doesn't take that much effort.


Really? Are there THAT many planes from the North flying over Seoul each day? Do tell.
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fermentation



Joined: 22 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fosterman wrote:

Main article: The Blue House Raid
On January 21, 1968, a group of 31 North Korean military soldiers was sent to South Korea by Kim Il-sung to kill President Park Chung-hee. A firefight began when the commandos were just 800 yards from the Blue House (the South Korean Presidential Palace). In all, 68 South Koreans were killed and 66 were wounded, including about two dozen civilians. Three Americans also died and three were wounded.

how did these guys get so close with the USA patrolling the border?
North koreans have been coming in and out of south korea for decades!
and god knows what they have brought through for possible future attacks. I am sure North Korea have safe houses here, and they have chemical, biological and maybe. JUST MAYBE. WMDs
seriously it's not hard to move people under ground undetected, or cargo, it's done everyday along the mexican border, canadian borders, across the adriatic coast into Italy , cubans into usa, etc etc..
you telling me, the North Korea Military can't move people or cargo across it's own mountains? LOL
come on don't be naive


Yeah every Korean knows about that incident. They were stopped. It was also in the 60s when North Korea was actually more advanced than the South.

Bringing in a nuke and having it stashed somewhere in Seoul is entirely different. That's just pure speculation based on zero evidence. Like I've said, if you start with "Who knows" and "What ifs" then you can pretty much say anything is possible. The US has CIA agents hidden all over the country, ready to shoot Kim Jong Un's head off at any moment.
Who knows?

The South has secret laser missile defense systems that can shoot down any Nork missiles and artillery. Who knows with the advances in technology they've made?

Quote:
why would they burn seoul to the ground? because the US has decided to invade the North. so North Korea will not go down without bring as many people down with them.


You gotta stay on point man. Weren't you saying that the US wouldn't invade North Korea because of how afraid they are of the Norks?

Quote:
Really? Are there THAT many planes from the North flying over Seoul each day? Do tell.


I think he means in a war where the US is the aggressor.
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fosterman



Joined: 16 Nov 2011

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Corea wrote:
fosterman wrote:
Captain Corea wrote:


Show us an instance of a city being leveled by bombardment.

Now, what were the factors involved? Who controlled the air? The supply lines?


that is irrelevant. it doesn't matter who controls the air, the sea or the land
it doesn't matter about supply route, getting food the soldiers, or anything like that. because I am not talking about a war.
I am talking about a silent rogue attack on seoul. from a stationary position by means of rockets, missiles, and bombs.
the navy, the airforce, the army would not even be deployed.
you seem to be confused as to the resources needed to wage an attack.



Quote:
just a small plane flying over seoul as thousands do everyday, and one just happens to drop " A LITTLE BOY" or maybe a couple of them.
kaboom. it's that simple.
imagine if the terrorists had nukes when they hijacked those planes on 911, or the terrorists had nukes and just dropped them on NYC. that's how easy it is to drop a bomb. it's making it which is the hard part, not dropping it.
the Norks have already made them. we know that. and we know dropping one doesn't take that much effort.


Really? Are there THAT many planes from the North flying over Seoul each day? Do tell.


North Korea have submarines which can move undetected , we know this. Cheonan (anyone?), we know North Korea have cargo ships which frequently travel around the world, trading etc, we can't board every ship and inspect it's cargo can we?
so how hard would it be, to move an Atomic bomb( keep in mind they are small in size really, just heavy) so let's say they move it to Vladivostok and there they have a cargo plane waiting , all systems check for an incoming cargo plane to use South Korean airspace to fly over Korea on route to ohhh I don't know, Mongolia, or china, or where ever it's needed to go but to pass through Korean airspace. under the flagship of ohhh I don't know, Mongolia or Russian plane. really not that hard flying out of some small dirt town in Russia. it's not incheon International ok.
once over the country. drop the bomb. KABOOM! rouge attack.
plane departed from Russia who we to blame, the Russians?
north Korea will deny it.
there are so many scenarios to off load a nuke it's not funny.
it's really not that difficult, if you have the resources, or even the money. it's very possible.
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