Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Should the North Secede from the union?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:31 am    Post subject: Should the North Secede from the union? Reply with quote

I'm about 3/4's of the way through a re-evaluation of my political philosophy.

There was a time that I thought government by, of, and for the people could work. I am no longer convinced of this. That system can only work when 'the people' think of themselves as a people, one; that system can only work when compromise is the ideal. That is no longer in play, as far as I can see. Religious/political fundamentalism is antithetical to a popular government. Classical democracy worked for about a century in Athens; it worked for about 2 centuries in America. It is time to take a look at it again.

I've pretty much decided that 'law' as it is currently made: by a bought and paid for 'majority' in Congress and the state legislatures to legislate in the interests of their class/pay-masters, shaped/blocked by a minority in the Senate far beyond what is reasonable, with a minority party that insists the minority should rule, supported by endless funding by multi-billionaires in a system that considers corporations as 'people', is no longer reflective of popular government as it was once known.

I am 79.6% of the way toward deciding that it is time to dissolve the Union. I have absolutely no interest in living in a theocratic feudal state, which is where the opposition wants to go. Fine. Let them.

It would be better to separate now under some somewhat calmly arrived at divorce rather than a violent break-up.

http://www.salon.com/2012/08/12/should_the_south_secede/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A wise man once said...

"Physically speaking, we cannot separate. We cannot remove our respective sections from each other, nor build an impassable wall between them. A husband and wife may be divorced, and go out of the presence and beyond the reach of each other; but the different parts of our country cannot do this. They cannot but remain face to face, and intercourse, either amicable or hostile, must continue between them. Is it possible, then, to make that intercourse more advantageous or more satisfactory after separation than before? Can aliens make treaties easier than friends can make laws? Can treaties be more faithfully enforced between aliens than laws can among friends? Suppose you go to war, you cannot fight always; and when, after much loss on both sides, and no gain on either, you cease fighting, the identical old questions as to terms of intercourse are again upon you...

Why should there not be a patient confidence in the ultimate justice of the people? Is there any better or equal hope in the world? In our present differences is either party without faith of being in the right? If the Almighty Ruler of Nations, with his eternal truth and justice, be on your side of the North, or on yours of the South, that truth and that justice will surely prevail by the judgment of this great tribunal of the American people.

By the frame of the government under which we live, this same people have wisely given their public servants but little power for mischief; and have, with equal wisdom, provided for the return of that little to their own hands at very short intervals. While the people retain their virtue and vigilance, no administration, by any extreme of wickedness or folly, can very seriously injure the government in the short space of four years.

My countrymen, one and all, think calmly and well upon this whole subject. Nothing valuable can be lost by taking time. If there be an object to hurry any of you in hot haste to a step which you would never take deliberately, that object will be frustrated by taking time; but no good object can be frustrated by it. Such of you as are now dissatisfied, still have the old Constitution unimpaired, and, on the sensitive point, the laws of your own framing under it; while the new administration will have no immediate power, if it would, to change either. If it were admitted that you who are dissatisfied hold the right side in the dispute, there still is no single good reason for precipitate action. Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust in the best way all our present difficulty...

We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battle-field, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearth-stone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A wise man once said...


Even the wisest men are wrong sometimes, especially after a century and a half and conditions have changed.

Lincoln was right...for his time. I assert that maybe times have changed and we need to look at the big picture again.

After great struggle, Lincoln came to the conclusion that the way to save the Union was to use the military and economic power of the North to free the slaves. It was the way to preserve the ideal of government of the majority.

We no longer have slaves, but we have corporate masters who have bought both governing parties. It might be too late, but I assert that it is possible that if we brush off the worst impulses of the modern state by separating ourselves from theocracy, feudalism, authoritarianism, anti-intellectualism/science, and millenarianism, we may have a chance at a decent society.

I'm not claiming secession is the best or only solution. I am saying that we don't have much time before we have NO solution. Three months?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am elated to see that mainstream people are losing faith in the system.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
A wise man once said...


Even the wisest men are wrong sometimes, especially after a century and a half and conditions have changed.

Lincoln was right...for his time. I assert that maybe times have changed and we need to look at the big picture again.

After great struggle, Lincoln came to the conclusion that the way to save the Union was to use the military and economic power of the North to free the slaves. It was the way to preserve the ideal of government of the majority.

We no longer have slaves, but we have corporate masters who have bought both governing parties. It might be too late, but I assert that it is possible that if we brush off the worst impulses of the modern state by separating ourselves from theocracy, feudalism, authoritarianism, anti-intellectualism/science, and millenarianism, we may have a chance at a decent society.

I'm not claiming secession is the best or only solution. I am saying that we don't have much time before we have NO solution. Three months?


What Lincoln said then still holds true today. Underlying what Lincoln was saying was an appeal for patience, not rashness. The same holds true today.

Also, seceding would solve none of those problems. And would only create new ones. The idea that the problems we face would be solved by splitting in two and drawing arbitrary lines would somehow solve these problems in a country like America is intellectually lazy.

I don't even want to touch what practical, logistical, economic, political, diplomatic, and military nightmare the whole process would be. But I would caution those who favor such an idea to consider the Law of Unintended Consequences. Something like this would surely not work out the way it had been planned.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the North and South separated, the Southern states -- which currently rely on tax money redirected from the productive Northern states -- would have some real problems to solve in very short order. Sure, states like Texas, who manage to obscure their economic dysfunction with oil wealth, might manage alright, but states like Tennessee would go straight to Hell.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contemptible idea.

Please review: http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/federalism.htm

Many of the police powers are given only to State and local gov'ts. This means that Maine administers itself very differently from Mississippi. If Maine wants more gov't than Mississippi, it can collect more taxes and provide more services.

And yet, the same armed forces protects all 50 states.

Only a vain fool would seek to break this Union over a dispute about tax breaks. Should we seek to emulate Europe?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:

Also, seceding would solve none of those problems. And would only create new ones. The idea that the problems we face would be solved by splitting in two and drawing arbitrary lines would somehow solve these problems in a country like America is intellectually lazy.


Amen.

Damn, Ya-Ta, you brought Steelrails and I together on a major political issue.

Also, this and this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Zackback



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not going to work Steelrails. Lincoln appealed to the Almighty. Seeing how so many Americans hate that they would call him anyone else who says that word a "fanatic".
What the Founder's called a self-evident truth - that our rights come from Him - causes an uproar among too many today.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:03 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zackback



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would they allow the Palinator to stay in Alaska or would they send her to Dallas?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dare say you forgot Rust Belt. A mish-mash of AFL-CIO dinosaurs competing with their parent company's corporate shareholders as well as Daley-esqe machinery in local power to College Football head coaches, who assume dictatorial command based on whoever wins the Rust Belt Playoff Bowl every 4 years, thereby deciding most social and political issues given that Uni's campus culture. Liberal powers Wisconsin Badgers and Michigan Wolverines square off against conservative bastions Nebraska Cornhuskers and Indiana Hoosiers. The big cost is health care as a national diet of Bratwurst, Coney Dogs, and Deep Dish pizza takes its toll on the population. Handguns are made illegal, hunting rifles are mandatory to celebrate the first day of hunting season, the biggest holiday of the year. The balance of power between Yankeeria and Dixieland.

Last edited by Steelrails on Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slothrop wrote:

ecotopia. the pacific northwest(washington,oregon and northern california) should secede too. they could move their capital to portland. al gore will be dictator/CEO and clean energy will be the main industry alongside small press publishing. zen buddhism will be the state religion. marriage of all kinds will not be illegal but also will not be recognized by the state. cigarrettes, alcohol and other vices will be legal but taxed at 200% by the state.


Less the Al Gore being dictator part, that actually sounds like a not unpleasant place to live.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nowhere Man



Joined: 08 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

If the House of Representatives grew with the population, as it is designed to...

...I'm not saying there'd be no problems, but there are things to try before you try to pack it all up...

...like letting someone else go first in the primaries. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 1 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2013 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International