Korean Job Discussion Forums

[thatkidpercy]

[joesp]

Hi, percy, I got it, I got it. At least that much, I know how 는 can be used when drawing a distinction. I still cannot really tell though when it is required as opposed to optional. If I say 한국에서 or 한국에서는 doesn't seem to make such a big difference. Although I believe that although I learn the rules, I will never learn how to use 는 and 이 like native speakers and will always slip-up. If, however, it turns out to be optional, well, then I will feel slightly better^^

A better example that is harder to explain is :

2nd ex.) 저는 혼자서 맥주 마시는 것을 별로 좋아하지는 않지만 맥주가 정말 땡기네요.

This is another entry from my lang-8 writing. The native Korean speaker corrects me and says 좋아지는 ... this, again, I do not understand despite having the basic structure for 는 down to the point that I can get it right 90% of the time, and chalk the rest up to 'unavoidable error'.

Or, an affectation.

Hopefully, you will find it also useful to try and answer this question of why, in the second example, they say 는 ..

3rd ex.) 할 수가 없다 vs. 할 수 없다

These seem the same, too.

[Enigma]

I've got a question about looking for something when you're shopping.
Let's say for example I go into a little supermarket and I want cucumbers.

Normally I would ask

오이있어요?

But I just came across this, which I've never seen before

오이있나요?

I'm just wondering what the difference is between the two and which would be more appropriate to use in the situation described above.

Thanks

[fermentation]

[out of context]

When you ask a question with the -나 ending, there's a bit of the sense that you expect the answer to be negative. It's kind of the difference between "Do you have cucumbers here?" and "You wouldn't happen to have cucumbers here, would you?"

[joesp]

Enigma,

My grammer book, 위국인을 위한 한국어 문법 2 from 국립국어원, says this about ~나
1) Used a lot to ask a question, in which case ~나 used a lot with 자네 or 여보게 (여보게: "you" in a close relationship)

example) 자네, 언제 떠나나?

2) used (A) to ask a question to a person of the same age or social status as the speaker, or (B) the person (recipient, listener) is lower in age or status. Examples given are: teacher to student, the parents-in-law talking to their son-in-law, an old teacher talking to an adult student, an older brother to his grown up younger brother, ... In these situations, it is used not to speak of them in a condescending way but to show them respect. In these situations, it can be used with ~시

examples:
장모: 김 서방 지금 오시나?
교수: 자네, 내일까지 준비해 올 수 있으시겠나?

It then has a whole different category of ~나 that is defined as being used in the following
1) in cases of rigid up-down social status (especially in the military) where the higher-up is being rigid and asking a stiff question to the person under him

example) 누가 그런 말을 했나?

2) when you want to make it sound as if you are talking to yourself

example) 어, 내가 한국어 책을 어디다 놨나? 생각이 안 나네.

[fermentation]

joesp, in the situation Enigma wrote, I would say yes. Ending a sentence with 까요 or 나요 to the lady at the store isn't going to be perceived as condescending. Some people use it to sound more polite or careful. Of course if you drop the 요 and just use banmal like the examples your book gave then it's obviously going to sound rude.

[joesp]

나: 물음을 나타내는 어미
-- 용법 --
1. [일반적으로 말하는 사람이 웬만큼 지위가 있거나 나이가 든 경우 자신보다 아래이거나 허물없는 사이인 상대방을 대접하면서]질문할 때 쓴다. 이때 상대방을 '자네'나 '여보게'등으로 부른다
-- 결합정보 --
1. '는가(1)'는 '-나'와 같은 으미,기능을 가지고 동사 어간이나 '있다', '없다' 어간, '-았-', '-겠-' 뒤에 붙는다. 그리고 '이다'의 경우는 'ㄴ가' 가 사용되고 형용사 뒤에서는 '은가(1), '-ㄴ가'가 사용된다.
'ㄴ가'의 설명은 위에서 지적한 바와 똑같다.
2. '나'는 말하는 사람이 나이나 지위가 같거나 지신보다 아래인 상대방을 대접하면서 질문할 때 사용한다. 가령, 교수가 학생에게,ㅡ 장인이나 장모가 사위에게, 나이 많으신 선생님이 나이 든 학생에게, 형님이 나이가 든 동생에게 또는 나이가 든 친구 사이에서 상대방을 아주 낮춰 말하기보다는 존중해 주기 위해서 사용한다. 따라서 다음과 같이 높임의 '-으시''를 사용할 수도 있다.

나: (동사 어간이나 어미 '-았-', '-겠-' 뒤에 붙어) 강압적인 태도로 질문하거나 말하려는 내용에 대해 의문을 가지고 혼잣말하듯이 말함을 나타내는 어미
--용법--
1. 윗사람이 아랫사람에게 강압적인 태도르 질문할 때 쓴다. 친구가 관계나 그 밖에 아주 친한 사이에서 쓰기도 하지만 주로 군대와 같이 상하 관계가 분명하고 계급이나 지위 등을 고려하겨 말하는 집단에서 쓴다.
2. 말하는 사람이 말하려는 내용에 대해 의문을 가지고 혼잣말하듯이 말할때 쓴다
3. ['나 보다/싶다/하다' 구성으로 쓰여] 말하는 사람의 생각이나 추측을 나타낸다

[joesp]

The above is just the Korean version of what I translated 3 posts up.

It doesn't say anything about using it with strangers in a supermarket or on the street. I just read from the book by the 국립국어원. It's not even my experience or opinion. It's just the grammar guide from the government branch that specializes in the Korean language.

I spent 45,000 won on it, I hope the book is providing me with useful information^^

[fermentation]

If you add a 요 at the sentence then it won't be perceived as rude. Trust me, people aren't going be offended because you asked, "수박 있나요?"

[joesp]

I conducted a little study last night reading the sub-titles.
Basically, the book was confirmed.

For example, when Jason Bourne was talking to his murdered girlfriend's brother in the second Bourne movie, the translation used ~나요? This is when you are showing intimacy, because they had the connection of a serious relationship with the lover/dead sister.

In the movie 야차 people would use ~나요 when talking to people of a different social status who they were familiar with. This is where you use it to bridge a social status gap while yet acknowledging the gap.

I also heard it used a lot in 야차 with '여보게' and '자네' as they said.

I also saw the 역사 teacher (I watch 중교 2, 역사) on EBS say "오늘의 공부는 재미있었나요?" at the end of her lesson. Here, again, she was bridging the obvious gap in status between teacher-middle school students in a friendly way.

I saw about 5 or 6 times it was used in sub-titles, but in no case was it used between strangers.

I can say that my confidence in my purchase has been confirmed so far!

[fermentation]

People use it all the time when talking to strangers. You could go out and try it and observe how people react to it. I doubt people will think it's wrong or weird or rude.

[joesp]

[joesp]

my gilrlfriend said that "있어요"and "있나요" are the same.

[Fox]

My wife also said that "있어요?" and "있나요?" are functionally identical. She also commented that "있어요?" tends to be indicative of a Seoul dialect. This is one thing to bear in mind when trying to make absolute statements about Korean: it's still got a noticeable amount of dialectical variety.