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Dark Knight Rises Massacre
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Joined: 27 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
ghostrider wrote:
Kuros wrote:

Data? Which countries?

METHODS: A cross-sectional analysis of the World Health Organization Mortality Database analyzes homicides and suicides (both disaggregated as firearm related and non-firearm related) and unintentional and undetermined firearm deaths from 23 populous high-income Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development countries that provided data to the World Health Organization for 2003.

RESULTS: The US homicide rates were 6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, driven by firearm homicide rates that were 19.5 times higher. For 15-year olds to 24-year olds, firearm homicide rates in the United States were 42.7 times higher than in the other countries. For US males, firearm homicide rates were 22.0 times higher, and for US females, firearm homicide rates were 11.4 times higher.

Kuros wrote:
I refuse to take seriously the conceit that America can ban guns like it were some small European country. We have a different history and a higher demand. I realize that your (sub)urban-bias and statist sympathies make you think that a gun ban in the US will work. But it will end up like the war on drugs. You will have home invasions and it will create criminals from the law abiding. Actually, it would be much worse, because the right to bear arms has been guaranteed since the Bill of Rights. No, that Bill of Rights.

And Captain Corea thought my exploration of the right to bear arms upthread was uninteresting. But apparently it was necessary.

Trying to move the goalposts? We were discussing the effectiveness of gun bans not the constitutionality of such bans.

You're accusing me of moving the goalposts? I want you to note that we're well into this thread. Earlier in the thread I argued extensively how banning firearms would be unconstitutional. You need not have read every bit of it, its a long thread, but don't accuse me of moving the goalposts. Those goalposts were there long before you entered the field.

Furthermore, I directly connected the constitutional guarantee of the right with the sense of entitlement with which Americans regard possession of firearms. Although I believe the Federal ban on drugs should be unconstitutional under a proper reading of the Constitution, we can agree there is no affirmative, stated right towards possession of cocaine or heroin. Therefore, any attempts to ban firearms will be that much more difficult to some Americans who have regarded firearms as an affirmative constitutional right. So, there's another sense in which the goalpost has not been moved.

Lastly, your study succumbs to my central criticism: this conceit that America can be directly compared to Europe and other WHO countries. It can't. For better or for worse, this is No Country for Old Men. Other WHO countries don't have the experience, reliance, affinity, or overall demand for firearms. So, of course, we would expect these countries to have lower firearms death rates than America even before they banned firearms.

Statism presumes that almost every problem has a top-down governmental solution. Its very Nintendo, right? Guns do harm, and are less practical than they are dangerous, so lets ban guns! Problem solved! Too bad we Americans are autonomous humans, and not little pixel people running around on a side-scroller.

The illegal drug trade depends on an ability to smuggle or produce drugs domestically in significant quantities. I think it would be harder for people to make their own guns or smuggle guns from other countries. Unlike cannabis, you can't just plant a seed in the ground and grow a gun. You can't just buy a few chemicals at the supermarket and produce a gun in the lab in your basement. You can't just hide a gun in a body cavity and board a plane bound for the US. And what countries would Americans smuggle guns from? Other countries (Canada, Mexico) smuggle guns from the US- not the other way around. Guns are not an addictive substance so I don't think the demand for guns can be compared to the demand for drugs. Drugs addicts need their daily fix, but most people would have no problem coping with their lives without a gun. Finally, there seems to be no historical precedent for concluding that a war on guns would turn out like a war on drugs. The US was ready to repeal prohibition after thirteen short years, but most countries with very strict gun control seem not to have any intention of changing.
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sirius black

Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see a problem in the logic. If thousands of people are coming across the border, why would it be difficult to smuggle guns?
Also, during prohibition, many people making alcohol. It was almost as easy to get as before.
The war on drug doesn't work because of the high demand. We can say what we like about Columbia, Peru and other countries that grow these drugs but without demand they wouldn't have a market and they didn't create the demand.
The real question is how strong is the demand for guns if it was repealed? Presently, I'd say pretty damn high. The only way it will work is for America to change culturally with our view of guns.
Americans have the money and means to satisfy ANY need. Legal or otherwise. Its the largest market for all manner of things because you have a huge country, 300 million folks who have a quarter of the world's GNP. If enough people want guns it WILL happen. i can't think of anything that masses of Americans want and can't get other than a decent job. Very Happy
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