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The word 'liberal'...
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you explain why you think Obama is a liar about everything?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Could you explain why you think Obama is a liar about everything?

I really don't think I need to explain that to you...
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The progressive case against Obama

Quote:
Bottom line: The president is complicit in creating an increasingly unequal -- and unjust -- society

The policy continuity with Bush is a stark contrast to what Obama offered as a candidate. Look at the broken promises from the 2008 Democratic platform: a higher minimum wage, a ban on the replacement of striking workers, seven days of paid sick leave, a more diverse media ownership structure, renegotiation of NAFTA, letting bankruptcy judges write down mortgage debt, a ban on illegal wiretaps, an end to national security letters, stopping the war on whistle-blowers, passing the Employee Free Choice Act, restoring habeas corpus, and labor protections in the FAA bill. Each of these pledges would have tilted bargaining leverage to debtors, to labor, or to political dissidents. So Obama promised them to distinguish himself from Bush, and then went back on his word because these promises didn’t fit with the larger policy arc of shifting American society toward his vision. For sure, Obama believes he is doing the right thing, that his policies are what’s best for society. He is a conservative technocrat, running a policy architecture to ensure that conservative technocrats like him run the complex machinery of the state and reap private rewards from doing so. Radical political and economic inequality is the result. None of these policy shifts, with the exception of TARP, is that important in and of themselves, but together they add up to declining living standards.

Under Bush, economic inequality was bad, as 65 cents of every dollar of income growth went to the top 1 percent. Under Obama, however, that number is 93 cents out of every dollar. That’s right, under Barack Obama there is more economic inequality than under George W. Bush. And if you look at the chart above, most of this shift happened in 2009-2010, when Democrats controlled Congress. This was not, in other words, the doing of the mean Republican Congress. And it’s not strictly a result of the financial crisis; after all, corporate profits did crash, like housing values did, but they also recovered, while housing values have not.

This is the shape of the system Obama has designed. It is intentional, it is the modern American order, and it has a certain equilibrium, the kind we identify in Middle Eastern resource extraction based economies. We are even seeing, as I showed in an earlier post, a transition of the American economic order toward a petro-state. By some accounts, America will be the largest producer of hydrocarbons in the world, bigger than Saudi Arabia. This is just not an America that any of us should want to live in. It is a country whose economic basis is oligarchy, whose political system is authoritarianism, and whose political culture is murderous toward the rest of the world and suicidal in our aggressive lack of attention to climate change.

Many will claim that Obama was stymied by a Republican Congress. But the primary policy framework Obama put in place – the bailouts, took place during the transition and the immediate months after the election, when Obama had enormous leverage over the Bush administration and then a dominant Democratic Party in Congress. In fact, during the transition itself, Bush’s Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson offered a deal to Barney Frank, to force banks to write down mortgages and stem foreclosures if Barney would speed up the release of TARP money. Paulson demanded, as a condition of the deal, that Obama sign off on it. Barney said fine, but to his surprise, the incoming president vetoed the deal. Yup, you heard that right — the Bush administration was willing to write down mortgages in response to Democratic pressure, but it was Obama who said no, we want a foreclosure crisis. And with Neil Barofsky’s book ”Bailout,” we see why. Tim Geithner said, in private meetings, that the foreclosure mitigation programs were not meant to mitigate foreclosures, but to spread out pain for the banks, the famous “foam the runway” comment. This central lie is key to the entire Obama economic strategy. It is not that Obama was stymied by Congress, or was up against a system, or faced a massive crisis, which led to the shape of the economy we see today. Rather, Obama had a handshake deal to help the middle class offered to him by Paulson, and Obama said no. He was not constrained by anything but his own policy instincts. And the reflation of corporate profits and financial assets and death of the middle class were the predictable results.


Obama isn't so much a liar as the Obama character that the '08 and '12 Chicago campaigns have pitched is itself a lie.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Yata,

I totally see your perspective but something around 50% of the electorate sees something completely different. My high school friends keep saying Mitt Romney is the candidate of peace and prosperity. Romey has flip flopped on the issues and has said whatever people want to hear depending on the venue so much -- I don't know -- people just seem to like him for some unknown reason. Really, I don't get it. I see someone who wants to increase military spending while cutting taxes as someone who wants peace yet wants to attack Iran as someone who supports other republicans but does not agree with their ideas about rape and incest. But, Obama is the liar. I just don't get it - other than that there is no rationality on this planet.


#1: Your high school friends don't seem to have been following the campaign. Until Oct. 3, Romney was a war-monger. Something like 17 of the 25 foreign policy advisors around him are neo-cons. There should be no difference between the foreign policy of the US and Netanyahu. The US is exceptional and should not ever apologize, ever. For anything.

Prosperity: Hmm. It didn't work in '01 with the tax cuts and it didn't work in '03 with the tax cuts. Are your friends explaining why it will work the third time around?

The whole idea is based on a scam. We'll cut taxes for everyone and increase spending and no one is going to have to pay anything for anything.

You choose who you want, but I am of the belief that there ain't nothing free in this life. Given the number of lobbyists in Washington, the odds are it ain't gonna be the 1%. Unless we fight.

The trouble is, Obama is almost as captive as the movement conservative GOP.

The way I see things: a vote for Romney is a vote for Bachmann/Cain/Trump/Akin/...etc.

Obama is not the best standard bearer...but he is the only choice we have available in our present system.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no doubt in my mind that Obama is not a liberal and he is not a socialist - he is a moderate to the core - at least as President.

I don't know anything about a "Paulson deal" but there is something not quite right about that story. First of all, why would Paulson want to make a deal with an incoming President, even before he is President? And, once Obama was President, than Paulson doesn't even have a card to play in making a deal. The whole thing is weird.

Anyway, I don't see Obama as a liar; I see Obama as someone who has tried to do the best with what was dealt to him in the time he had. Bush had bankrupted the country with foreign wars, tax cuts and a failure to regulate the banking industry. Obama hasn't completely fixed those things but he has moved us away from them. I see things as better, though far from perfect. Mitt Romney would just be a return to more of the Bush policies.

Anyway, the election will soon be over and regardelss of the outcome I will be happy it is.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is no doubt in my mind that Obama is not a liberal and he is not a socialist - he is a moderate to the core - at least as President.


I think you are exactly right.

Back in the winter of '09 I said Obama should crush the Reagan nonsense of deregulating everything and cutting taxes. I said there should be a few Wall Street dudes hanging by the neck from the nearest lamp post.

I really think that the man had the right idea when he announced his bid for the presidency, but that events over-took him and he wasn't quick enough on his feet to re-establish his position.

We have had a massive economic catastrophe and wasted it.

Had he taken on the banks in an aggressive way, I think he could have re-organized the governing coalition for the next 40 years. Alas. That was not to be.

He seems to have finally come around somewhat to my way of thinking, but not nearly soon enough or far enough. So be it. At least he came around. Romney has not. Romney is still captive to the forces of the ideological right who want to repeal the 20th Century and restore the Gilded Age.

I really wanted to see the confirmation of what I saw when I was a kid. I wanted to see the reaffirmation of civil rights for all, what I saw when the Voting and Civil Rights Acts were passed. Those events inspired me that our country was headed in the right direction.

The right then, and the right now, put their personal private selfish concerns over and above the rights of all.

It is disgusting in my view.

You younger generation may well have a different vision of the future of the country and it is up to you to bring that into being. Meanwhile, while I'm still living, I will work to bring what I see as justice to our country, regardless of what the moneyed interests say.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Anyway, I don't see Obama as a liar; I see Obama as someone who has tried to do the best with what was dealt to him in the time he had. Bush had bankrupted the country with foreign wars, tax cuts and a failure to regulate the banking industry. Obama hasn't completely fixed those things but he has moved us away from them. I see things as better, though far from perfect. Mitt Romney would just be a return to more of the Bush policies.

In other words, you've bought into the narrative hook, line, and sinker. You've been duped. The power of the propaganda in action.

It's just laughable to me. You actually believe Obama is a victim of circumstance? He was placed into power by a bunch of Wall Street cronies and had every opportunity to change things for the better - but never had any intention of ever doing so from day 1. Because he IS a liar, as plain as my face. He never even made an attempt to reverse any of Bush's policies, but in fact went out of his way to continue and expand upon them. This is just an indisputable fact, on record.

His entire raison d'etre is to charm the electorate to disarm and distract them. He has a nice smile and speaks well, but he can't even do it without a teleprompter. The guy is a complete joke once you look beyond the superficial (which apparently the average American is incapable of doing).
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
I see Obama as someone who has tried to do the best with what was dealt to him in the time he had.


Absolutely not. Take a detailed look at housing policy, come back in three months, and tell me the same thing. Please do.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Yata,

I totally see your perspective but something around 50% of the electorate sees something completely different. My high school friends keep saying Mitt Romney is the candidate of peace and prosperity. Romey has flip flopped on the issues and has said whatever people want to hear depending on the venue so much -- I don't know -- people just seem to like him for some unknown reason. Really, I don't get it. I see someone who wants to increase military spending while cutting taxes as someone who wants peace yet wants to attack Iran as someone who supports other republicans but does not agree with their ideas about rape and incest. But, Obama is the liar. I just don't get it - other than that there is no rationality on this planet.


You know people under the age of 25 that like Romney? Really? That just sounds weird to me.

I have 300+ friends on FB. TWO have posted anything pro-Romney in the past year (at least that I've come across). Outside FB, the only pro-Romney people I know are a few stereotypical GOP relatives (blind to GOP politicians faults, think the Democrats are wrong 100% of the time, etc). Given how close the polls are, I've come to realize my life has become a bit of a bubble in terms of political leanings.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Unposter wrote:
Yata,

I totally see your perspective but something around 50% of the electorate sees something completely different. My high school friends keep saying Mitt Romney is the candidate of peace and prosperity. Romey has flip flopped on the issues and has said whatever people want to hear depending on the venue so much -- I don't know -- people just seem to like him for some unknown reason. Really, I don't get it. I see someone who wants to increase military spending while cutting taxes as someone who wants peace yet wants to attack Iran as someone who supports other republicans but does not agree with their ideas about rape and incest. But, Obama is the liar. I just don't get it - other than that there is no rationality on this planet.


You know people under the age of 25 that like Romney? Really? That just sounds weird to me.

I have 300+ friends on FB. TWO have posted anything pro-Romney in the past year (at least that I've come across). Outside FB, the only pro-Romney people I know are a few stereotypical GOP relatives (blind to GOP politicians faults, think the Democrats are wrong 100% of the time, etc). Given how close the polls are, I've come to realize my life has become a bit of a bubble in terms of political leanings.


How much of your life have you spent in the middle of the country?

I'm asking not because I'm saying you'd meet more young Romney-backers here (though you would), but you seem to be vaguely aware, at most, of why a big city technocrat like Obama would be distrusted.

The middle of the country is really suffering, and its not like there's been a noticeable difference from either party either way.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
Unposter wrote:
Yata,

I totally see your perspective but something around 50% of the electorate sees something completely different. My high school friends keep saying Mitt Romney is the candidate of peace and prosperity. Romey has flip flopped on the issues and has said whatever people want to hear depending on the venue so much -- I don't know -- people just seem to like him for some unknown reason. Really, I don't get it. I see someone who wants to increase military spending while cutting taxes as someone who wants peace yet wants to attack Iran as someone who supports other republicans but does not agree with their ideas about rape and incest. But, Obama is the liar. I just don't get it - other than that there is no rationality on this planet.


You know people under the age of 25 that like Romney? Really? That just sounds weird to me.

I have 300+ friends on FB. TWO have posted anything pro-Romney in the past year (at least that I've come across). Outside FB, the only pro-Romney people I know are a few stereotypical GOP relatives (blind to GOP politicians faults, think the Democrats are wrong 100% of the time, etc). Given how close the polls are, I've come to realize my life has become a bit of a bubble in terms of political leanings.


How much of your life have you spent in the middle of the country?

I'm asking not because I'm saying you'd meet more young Romney-backers here (though you would), but you seem to be vaguely aware, at most, of why a big city technocrat like Obama would be distrusted.

The middle of the country is really suffering, and its not like there's been a noticeable difference from either party either way.


I went to college in st. louis, but I only have one friend still in the area (no surprise since STL peaked around 1900 and has been on a downward slope since then). Everyone else is on the coasts or Chicago (which I think you'd agree is an anomaly in the Midwest).

Anyway, I am aware the middle of the country is suffering, but a number of midwestern states have lower unemployment rates than California and other coastal states.

Obama's star has faded but he's still kicking Romney's butt among young people

Quote:
In early October a Harvard Institute of Politics poll found 55% support for Mr Obama among under-30s, next to 36% for Mr Romney. The lead, though, was slightly smaller in the all-important swing states, which could be good news for the challenger, who needs to perform only a bit better than Mr McCain did four years ago to win.[


But the article also notes:

Quote:
Today voters aged 25 to 29, who were of voting age in 2008, prefer Mr Obama in much larger numbers than 18- to 24-year-olds, many of whom were not.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros,

I agree with the principle that Obama's housing policy has been poor. I have even compared it to trickle down economics (in a discussion with VisitorQ).

But, I am not a single-issue voter.

I look at the big picture and I look at the chances that Romney is going to do something positive and I look at the chances that Jill Stein is going to get elected and I look at the chances that Obama could do something positive and my conclusion is that Obama is the best choice.

Even Jill Stein, who according to that website, I have the most agreement with, it is still only 83%. I just don't think it is possible to agree with any one candidate 100% of the time. So, any effort to dissuade me with single issues isn't going to work.

Now, VisitorQ can insult me and say that I am gullible. But, I know very well what Obama's warts are. I also have a pretty good idea what Romney's and Gary Johnson's warts are. I also know what there positives are. And I, personally, make a global decision weighing the entire package.

I still think about Gary Johnson's interview with Jon Stewart. Johnson said that his economic policies are like a Republican and his social policies are like a Democrat, which are (Johnson's opinion) the best of both parties.

The funny thing is you could probably say the same thing about Obama. His economic policies are fairly Republican and his social policies are fairly Democratic. Isn't that amusing?

Obama is treated terribly unfairly. On the one hand, he is criticized for continuing some of Bush's policies and on the other hand, he is criticized for not working with Republicans. So, which is it? It takes two to tango. Everytime Obama tries to agree with the Republicans (take health care),the Republicans move even farther to the right and call him a socialist. It is absurd.

I think Obama has tried to lead from the middle and does his best to look at the interests of all Americans from the poor and minorities to bankers to wall street fat cats; he has tried to be a president for all - and he ends up getting it from both sides in return. But, it is minus a wart or two, the best place to govern the country.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unposter wrote:
Kuros,

I agree with the principle that Obama's housing policy has been poor. I have even compared it to trickle down economics (in a discussion with VisitorQ).

Yeah, I recall that you didn't really understand what "trickle down economics" even means... Seeing as the whole notion is absurd.

Quote:
Even Jill Stein, who according to that website, I have the most agreement with, it is still only 83%. I just don't think it is possible to agree with any one candidate 100% of the time. So, any effort to dissuade me with single issues isn't going to work.

Jill Stein? Seriously? I watched her on the Larry King debate and it was just embarrassing... I've never heard so much nonsense spouted in a debate before; about 90% of what came out of her mouth was ludicrous to the point of being laughable. If she were ever put in charge, the whole country would collapse within 3 weeks...

But hey, that's just my opinion Wink

Quote:
Now, VisitorQ can insult me and say that I am gullible. But, I know very well what Obama's warts are. I also have a pretty good idea what Romney's and Gary Johnson's warts are. I also know what there positives are. And I, personally, make a global decision weighing the entire package.

When I say you are gullible, it's really not intended as an insult (sorry if you feel that way), I just can't put it otherwise. Your entire understanding of the political process is gullible. You are being fed a contrived narrative, and you're buying into it hook, line, and sinker. Your behavior is actually entirely predictable, and people in charge of campaigns tailor their messages to elicit precisely the sorts of reactions that you give.

Quote:
Obama is treated terribly unfairly.

Rolling Eyes

Yeah, poor, poor Obama. He was taken from total obscurity and placed into the top political position by the power elite and gave them trillions in dollars of bailouts. All of his promises made along the way were broken (as predicted by people like myself since day one). Yet, he's the "victim". What a joke.
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Unposter



Joined: 04 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VisitorQ,

1. Your attitudes about Obama's birth certificate is about all I need to know about your positions. You are conspiracy junky at best and a paranoid at worst. Yes, the whole world is being manipulated but you are the only one who knows the truth - are you Glenn Beck by chance?

2. "All of his promises made along the way were broken (as predicted by people like myself since day one)." - VisitorQ.

Yes, it is all about you and making sure your predictions come true.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Obama is treated terribly unfairly.


Oh have a cry. Fair has nothing to do with politics.
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