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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the reason Mexico lost Texas was because of the influx of Anglo migrants who then revolted against Mexican rule. How long will it be before a Mexican dominated southwest decides to secede from the union. As Titus said, demographics is destiny.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The revolt in Texas was caused by Santa Anna's repeal of the Mexican constitution, which was a very liberal document for it's time, and Santa Annas returning power and property to the Catholic church. There were revolts in other parts of mexico at the same time over this issue.

yes Britain did wage war on the citizens of what became the United States.

The native Americans were treated very unfairly and often brutally but no war of extermination took place. Alcohol and disease were much more deadly.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would america today bomb america then?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even better, would america today bomb america today?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
Titus wrote:
Borders are established through violence. That's the way of things. Americans should understand that.



You sound like Hitler.


http://i.imgur.com/tnIsa.gif
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
bigverne wrote:
young_clinton wrote:
Titus wrote:
Borders are established through violence. That's the way of things. Americans should understand that.



You sound like Hitler.


How was the US established again?


Hitler liked ethnic cleansing along with arguing for more breathing space for Germans. The US was established by revolution and her borders expanded by mostly treaty and in the Southwest war with Mexico. The U.S. did not ethnically cleanse Hispanics or Mexicans. Furthermore American expansion into the Mexican territories was fueled by trade and the inability to do so with the Mexican regime. There was no rabid hatred for Hispanics or Mexicans. And if you refer to the decimation of the Native American population that was due to small pox and measles which American authorities actually tried to desperately contain when outbreaks occured.


Hitler saw what America did to Native Americans and got the idea from the US. The US deliberately spread smallpox and other disease throughout the Native American population (smallpox blankets) This is in addition to various wars, massacres, and killings of Native Americans by the steady creep of westward expansion and Manifest Destiny. Do you think that land was empty and the US just marched in and magically brought progress to a savage land?
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unibrow wrote:
The US deliberately spread smallpox and other disease throughout the Native American population (smallpox blankets)


Oh yes?

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson was quick to grasp the immense importance of vaccination. Receiving a delegation of North American Indian Chieftains in Washington in the winter of 1801-1802, he persuaded them all to be vaccinated and to take back to their tribes supplies of vaccine. He further promoted vaccination among the Indians, directing Meriwether Lewis and William Clark to "carry with you some matter of the kinepox (cowpox), inform those of them with whom you may be of its efficiency as a preservative from the smallpox, and instruct and encourage them in the use of it."


Moreover, if Americans had actually wanted to commit genocide, there would not be a single native American left living today in the continental United States. Perhaps we ought to stop leaning so hard on narrative? You might find the tale of the evil white man to be compelling, but the tale of the imperfect white man would be a better fit.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
And the reason Mexico lost Texas was because of the influx of Anglo migrants who then revolted against Mexican rule. How long will it be before a Mexican dominated southwest decides to secede from the union. As Titus said, demographics is destiny.

Better still, Mexico lost Texas because of illegal immigration. When Mexico tried to keep Texas through force, they lost about half of the rest of their country to the United States as well.
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Leon



Joined: 31 May 2010

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Unibrow wrote:
The US deliberately spread smallpox and other disease throughout the Native American population (smallpox blankets)


Oh yes?

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson was quick to grasp the immense importance of vaccination. Receiving a delegation of North American Indian Chieftains in Washington in the winter of 1801-1802, he persuaded them all to be vaccinated and to take back to their tribes supplies of vaccine. He further promoted vaccination among the Indians, directing Meriwether Lewis and William Clark to "carry with you some matter of the kinepox (cowpox), inform those of them with whom you may be of its efficiency as a preservative from the smallpox, and instruct and encourage them in the use of it."


Moreover, if Americans had actually wanted to commit genocide, there would not be a single native American left living today in the continental United States. Perhaps we ought to stop leaning so hard on narrative? You might find the tale of the evil white man to be compelling, but the tale of the imperfect white man would be a better fit.


They are both poor fits. There were many evil white men, and many imperfect ones.
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Unibrow wrote:
The US deliberately spread smallpox and other disease throughout the Native American population (smallpox blankets)


Oh yes?

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson was quick to grasp the immense importance of vaccination. Receiving a delegation of North American Indian Chieftains in Washington in the winter of 1801-1802, he persuaded them all to be vaccinated and to take back to their tribes supplies of vaccine. He further promoted vaccination among the Indians, directing Meriwether Lewis and William Clark to "carry with you some matter of the kinepox (cowpox), inform those of them with whom you may be of its efficiency as a preservative from the smallpox, and instruct and encourage them in the use of it."


Moreover, if Americans had actually wanted to commit genocide, there would not be a single native American left living today in the continental United States. Perhaps we ought to stop leaning so hard on narrative? You might find the tale of the evil white man to be compelling, but the tale of the imperfect white man would be a better fit.


You're quite uninformed on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#United_States_of_America
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics#Disease_as_a_weapon_against_Native_Americans

Quote:
According to many accounts, the spread of disease from European contact was not entirely accidental. Europeans who were arriving in the Americas had already been exposed to the diseases, attaining immunity, and thus were not affected by them. Therefore, it would be an effective technique when others were exhausted to use disease as a biological weapon.

There is at least one instance documented by many in which disease was proposed to be used as a weapon against Native American tribes. During the French and Indian War, Jeffery Amherst, 1st Baron Amherst, Britain's commander in chief in North America suggested using the smallpox disease to wipe out their Native American enemy. It is quoted from his writings to Colonel Henry Bouquet concerning the situation in western Pennsylvania that the spread of disease would be beneficial to achieve their means and Bouquet confirmed his intentions to do so. In 1763 at the Siege of Fort Pitt, many historians claim that smallpox-infested blankets were removed from fallen British soldiers. They were then to be distributed to Native Americans who accepted the blankets as their own. An English trader is quoted concerning the two Indian chiefs given "two blankets and a handkerchief out of the small pox hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect." A smallpox outbreak did occur in this area among Indians in the spring.

Dissent to the biological weapon theory

There is current scholarly dissent to the theory that the outbreaks of smallpox may have been aided by the intentional spreading of disease. The outbreaks that occurred specifically in this region may have resulted from sporadic cases already occurring amongst Indians rather than from this scenario. Historians also say that though blankets containing smallpox may have been distributed to Native Americans by the Europeans, they may have been given with good will and intentions, instead of for the purpose of disseminating disease. Additionally, scholars such as Gregory Dowd, are of the opinion that disease was spread by Native Americans returning from battling infected Europeans. Therefore it may have been carried by Native Americans to their own people and spread.


Of course, Amherst was a British officer. But nevermind THAT.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unibrow wrote:
Fox wrote:
Unibrow wrote:
The US deliberately spread smallpox and other disease throughout the Native American population (smallpox blankets)


Oh yes?

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson was quick to grasp the immense importance of vaccination. Receiving a delegation of North American Indian Chieftains in Washington in the winter of 1801-1802, he persuaded them all to be vaccinated and to take back to their tribes supplies of vaccine. He further promoted vaccination among the Indians, directing Meriwether Lewis and William Clark to "carry with you some matter of the kinepox (cowpox), inform those of them with whom you may be of its efficiency as a preservative from the smallpox, and instruct and encourage them in the use of it."


Moreover, if Americans had actually wanted to commit genocide, there would not be a single native American left living today in the continental United States. Perhaps we ought to stop leaning so hard on narrative? You might find the tale of the evil white man to be compelling, but the tale of the imperfect white man would be a better fit.


You're quite uninformed on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#United_States_of_America


The evil white man theme is soooo 90s. Then again maybe I just think that because I was in HS and college then. Perhaps I should just say: stop sounding like you're a freshman or sophomore in college.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the U.S. Army?

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/plag/5240451.0001.009?rgn=main;view=fulltext

Quote:
Ward Churchill tells a shocking tale of war crimes committed by the U.S. Army at Fort Clark against the Mandan Indians in 1837. Fort Clark stood perched on a windswept bluff overlooking the Missouri River, in what is today North Dakota. Churchill reports that in early 1837, the commander of Fort Clark ordered a boatload of blankets shipped from a military smallpox infirmary in St. Louis. When the shipment arrived at Fort Clark on June 20, U.S. Army officers requested a parlay with Mandan Indians who lived next to the fort. At the parlay, army officers distributed the smallpox-infested blankets as gifts. When the Indians began to show signs of the illness, U.S. Army doctors did not impose quarantine, but instead told the Indians to scatter, so that the disease would become more widespread and kill more Indians. Meanwhile, the fort authorities hoarded smallpox vaccine in their storeroom, instead of using it to inoculate the Indians.

Every aspect of Churchill's tale is fabricated. Between 1994 and 2003, Ward Churchill published at least six different versions of this accusation against the U.S. Army. While the Mandans and other Indians of the Upper Plains did suffer horribly from a smallpox epidemic in 1837, Churchill presents no evidence whatsoever to indicate that the infection was anything but accidental, or that the U.S. Army was in any way involved. Fort Clark was a privately owned fur trading outpost, not a military base, and there were no U.S. troops in the vicinity. The closest U.S. military unit was an eight hundred mile march away at Fort Leavenworth.

In telling his fantastic tale, Churchill has fabricated incidents that never occurred and individuals who never existed. Churchill falsified the sources that he cited in support of his tale, and repeatedly concealed evidence in his possession that disconfirms his version of events.

Ward Churchill is currently a Professor of Ethnic Studies at the University of Colorado. The university granted Churchill tenure in 1991 in spite of the fact that he lacks a Ph.D. and had not served the normal probationary period as an untenured assistant professor. Churchill holds a M.A. degree in Communications from Sangamon State University. Documents from the University of Colorado archives indicate that Churchill obtained his tenured position there under a program designed to "recruit and hire a more diverse faculty" (Clark, 2005).

In early 2006, the University investigated Churchill on seven allegations of research misconduct, one of which was Churchill's smallpox blankets hoax. [3] The committee unanimously found Churchill guilty on all seven counts, and the Chancellor has recommended his dismissal from the university.

Given the politicization of this topic, it seems necessary to acknowledge at the outset that far too many instances of the U.S. Army committing outrages against various Indian tribes can be documented. A number of these were explicitly genocidal in intent. It is not the intention of this author to deny that simple fact. However, as the eminent Cherokee sociologist Russell Thornton has observed of Ward Churchill's fabricated version of the 1837 smallpox epidemic: "The history is bad enough—there's no need to embellish it" (Jaschik, 2005). That the U.S. Army is undoubtedly guilty of genocidal outrages against Indians in the past in no way justifies Ward Churchill's fabrication of an outrage that never happened.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
if Americans had actually wanted to commit genocide, there would not be a single native American left living today in the continental United States.


The fact is though that europeans gradually displaced and disposessed the native people by a variety of means, from sparking minor wars, battles, importing foreign diseases, destroying the wildlife and thus depriving the natives of their food source, restricting their movements, poisoning their lands, and so on and on.

Until you are left with the desired result: a native people that are powerless and insignificant. They lost their country to invasive white settlers.
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Unibrow wrote:
Fox wrote:
Unibrow wrote:
The US deliberately spread smallpox and other disease throughout the Native American population (smallpox blankets)


Oh yes?

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson was quick to grasp the immense importance of vaccination. Receiving a delegation of North American Indian Chieftains in Washington in the winter of 1801-1802, he persuaded them all to be vaccinated and to take back to their tribes supplies of vaccine. He further promoted vaccination among the Indians, directing Meriwether Lewis and William Clark to "carry with you some matter of the kinepox (cowpox), inform those of them with whom you may be of its efficiency as a preservative from the smallpox, and instruct and encourage them in the use of it."


Moreover, if Americans had actually wanted to commit genocide, there would not be a single native American left living today in the continental United States. Perhaps we ought to stop leaning so hard on narrative? You might find the tale of the evil white man to be compelling, but the tale of the imperfect white man would be a better fit.


You're quite uninformed on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#United_States_of_America


The evil white man theme is soooo 90s. Then again maybe I just think that because I was in HS and college then. Perhaps I should just say: stop sounding like you're a freshman or sophomore in college.


Like I said I studied history at university. The new American nation repeatedly broke treaties, killed natives, annexed land, forced the relocation of hundreds of thousands of people, spread disease and alcohol through native tribes, and gradually drove the Native population to the bantustans we know today in. Learn some history before you speak. The crimes of European and American imperialism across the world are terrible and ongoing. Turn off Glenn Beck.
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