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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
It's not like Obama came out of nowhere. Harvard Law Review gets you noticed. Chicago politics gets you noticed. 4 years in the Senate with a bunch of media buzz gets you noticed. People saw the potential.


Obama DID come out of nowhere. He wasnít initially a part of the ĎWardí politics of Chicago. He was even an outsider to the Black politicos of Chicago initially. His rise came from an outsider NOT an insider. Eventually one becomes an insider organically. The point is he was not some insider initially.
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Patrick Bateman



Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Location: Lost in Translation

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:

1. Americans travel in ever increasing numbers for Ďmedical tourismí. The best medical care in the world is a crock from the AMA and others to justify the prices. About 2/3 of all personal bankruptcies are due to medical costs. Thatís a crisis.


I never said otherwise. My point was Americans know full well there is a serious problem with healthcare and it didn't/doesn't require traveling abroad.

sirius black wrote:

2. Its not moot. Size plays a role but size does not stop a country from having a good infrastructure. The fact is that America has long stopped spending money to improve its infrastructure. Obamaís former Chief of Staff, Emmanuel is now mayor of Chicago and has made some innovate ways of improving that cityís crumbling infrastructure. A smaller size may make it easier but size doesnít make it impossible. America spends a fifth of its money on military and for that we get to brag that we have a bigger military budget than the next 10 countries combined. Its not necessary.
Show how Americaís size makes it impossible to have better infrastructure (high speed rail, wired for the internet coast to coast, bridges and tunnels that arenít near collapse) and Iíll accept your point.


Again, I never said it was impossible. I said "moot comparison." You cannot reasonably compare the US and SK regarding size. A comparison between the US and China makes more sense.

sirius black wrote:

3. You missed the point. The countries that have same sex marriages arenít crumbling socially. The reasoning against same sex marriage by the right wing if you strip away all the rhetoric is a religious one. The same with abortion. Itís a religious issue to the right at its core. Socially, how does having two men or women affect you or I? As for my mentioning gay soldiers serving openly in other countries, the point is that it doesnít affect military readiness or effectiveness. The same argument was made by people when Truman integrated the military in í48. White soldiers they said would refuse to live in the same barracks and use the same bathrooms as Black soldiers.


I didn't miss the point, you did. >6% of countries allow gay marriage. That means that Americans traveling abroad are probably not going to visit one of those countries, especially when you look at the countries which allow same-sex marriage. And when you go to these countries are you handed an info sheet listing the differences? Now you bring in religion, not travel. That makes more sense, but has nothing to do with your original point.

To the point: were you opposed to same-sex marriage, traveled, then changed your mind?

sirius black wrote:

4. Travel has tons to do with it. Americans know very little about the outside world. Americans view of foreign policy is almost completely limited to what the politicians say. I guarantee you if more Americans traveled to Cuba (if it was allowed), Israel, the middle east, etc. we would see that our foreign policy stances were either naÔve or totally unnecessary and in some cases incendiary. Iíve known Jews who traveled to Israel and come back with a more progressive view of the Palestinian situation. Our foreign policy stances regarding Israel and Cuba are based purely on the Presidential election and getting the Florida votes. It has nothing to do with pragmatism and realpolitk.


Listen, I think we agree on a number of political issues, but for you to believe that Americans are ignorant and by traveling to other countries they can magically change that, is preposterous.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
The reasoning against same sex marriage by the right wing if you strip away all the rhetoric is a religious one. The same with abortion. Itís a religious issue to the right at its core.


You're correct about same-sex marriage (arguments about tradition-for-tradition's-sake notwithstanding), but you're horribly wrong about abortion. Even those that frame their anti-abortion sentiments religiously could make largely the same claims secularly.
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GF



Joined: 26 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's wrong about both. Both are part of the natural law, and consequently you can find any number of committed atheists and materialists on the Right opposing unnatural unions and infanticide.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most folks are uncomfortable with gay marriage, even atheists, its a social construct. My point was that the religious rights opposition was based on religious reasons.
I don't like seeing two men kissing and may personally be turned off seeng a married gay couple but I can't deny their right to marry any more than I can two peope of different religoius faiths or races.
As for abortion, the fundamentalists believe life starts at conception and medical science does not support that view. THAT is a religious view for the religious right. They formulated it from the bible. There are others that are against abortion who are not religious. No one is arguing that the ONLY people anti abortion or anti gay marriage are religious. The reasons against it by the religious right is basd on religion.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Bateman.

Your point is taken. Of course we know we have problems. Every country, even the most remote realizes that. My point is that we dismiss certain solutions out of hand because of what is fed to us by the media or politicians controlled by certain interests. National healthcare is labled socialist in America. Its been marketed as such. However, its been an institution for decades in many democratic nations.
Americans who have lived and worked overseas have seen it first hand. This is a korean teachers forum. Many Americans are teaching in Korea who have experienced much cheaper healthcare that is effective in Korea who have previously demonized national healthcare based on a lack of knowledge.

As for comparisons between countries. For you its moot based on size of the country and we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Size is one determinant for me amongst several. For you its the only.

I am not saying that if you travel you are automatically transformed into a new person. Many, many Americans leave America travel extensively and hold on to prejudices, biases, etc. anyway. Everyone is different. I've seen it first hand. Tons of Americans go abroad to teach and some change and others don't. The ones that have changed (with regards to what I am referring to) wouldn't have done so had they stayed in America.

This is just personal observation and experience but Americans have a reputation of being the most ignorant of the world outside our borders by Europeans and others. Its a running joke by Europeans and Brits when they visit America to have the random American ask the most inane questions like asking a Brit "so do you guys speak English there?' and numerous friends and family back in America have asked Americans in Korea if they get to eat sushi or some other Asian dish from other Asian countries. We're not even talking about the ones who have no idea where Korea is. Yes, there are some others from other western countries that are ignorant. Again, no stats to prove this but Americans generally are regarded as the most ignorant and insular.

My opinion is that if, as a nation, we got out more, we would view certain issues differently and perhaps change our stance on a myriad of things, including our foreign policy stances on certain countries and regions.
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GF wrote:
He's wrong about both. Both are part of the natural law, and consequently you can find any number of committed atheists and materialists on the Right opposing unnatural unions and infanticide.


GF, we'll agree to disagree. I agree that many atheists are against it but my point is directed to religious right wingers. They are unmovable on the issue because they are zealots with regards to religion.

Many Democrats, I would guess most don't like gay marriage but can compromise because they look at it from a civil liberties and rights point of view. Constitutionally they can't deny gays the right to marry even if they are personally turned off by it.

The religious right bases their view solely on the bible and not the constitution. That is my point but I will accept that if you don't agree.
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GF



Joined: 26 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
My point was that the religious rights opposition was based on religious reasons.


Not exactly. Their opposition is based on natural law, even if they themselves donít realize it. Natural law refers to moral truths apparent to human reason, and is distinguishable from divine law, which is mysterious and hidden from reason. Only the latter can properly be called religious.

Natural law is integrated into orthodox religion and there bound closely to divine law; so closely in fact that many will not be able to distinguish the two. And this is fine, because from the religious point of few, God is the author of both. But if you have followed the distinctions I've made, you can see that natural law is not inherently religious.

And this is why, as I noted, it is possible for atheists and materialists to feel and reason their way to many of the same natural moral truths taught by orthodox religions, whereas they will not reason their way to supernatural faith in the Holy Trinity.

Quote:
I don't like seeing two men kissing and may personally be turned off seeng a married gay couple


Why don't you listen to your gut?

Quote:
but I can't deny their right to marry any more than I can two peope of different religoius faiths or races.


Thatís like saying you canít deny a cannibalís right to eat human flesh any more than you can his right to eat potato chips.

Quote:
As for abortion, the fundamentalists believe life starts at conception and medical science does not support that view.


Medical science denies that cells are alive?
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Obama DID come out of nowhere. He wasnít initially a part of the ĎWardí politics of Chicago. He was even an outsider to the Black politicos of Chicago initially. His rise came from an outsider NOT an insider. Eventually one becomes an insider organically. The point is he was not some insider initially.


Obama headed up Harvard Law Review. That's the equivalent of being a McDonald's All-American and saying he "came out of nowhere" to take the NBA by storm because he didn't play college ball.

Or to use another Harvard-NBA example you could say like Jeremy Lin he came out of nowhere. To the casual fan he did, but to those in the know it wasn't a total surprise. The level was, but he was on the radar.


Quote:
America spends a fifth of its money on military and for that we get to brag that we have a bigger military budget than the next 10 countries combined. Its not necessary.


Quote:
National healthcare is labled socialist in America. Its been marketed as such. However, its been an institution for decades in many democratic nations.


Why don't people ever realize that there is a connection between the two? The reason NATO and Far East US nuclear umbrella countries can afford all of their infrastructure and national health care because of our massive amount of defense industry. It is an exchange and part of our Cold War strategy- We provided security, they developed their economies and safety nets. Much of the world outsources its security to the United States. Security is one of our biggest exports.

If we didn't provide security to Western Europe and East Asia through the Cold War they would have spent MASSIVE amounts of money on defense because they would have each been independently responsible for their own defense, especially their own nuclear deterrent. Their societies would have resembled North Korea with the amount of energy necessary to support their militaries.

Quote:
Its a running joke by Europeans and Brits when they visit America to have the random American ask the most inane questions like asking a Brit "so do you guys speak English there?' and numerous friends and family back in America have asked Americans in Korea if they get to eat sushi or some other Asian dish from other Asian countries.


I'd agree with this in part, but I'd also submit that many of the people around the world are deeply ignorant of how America works and the cultural factors going into American behavior.

Quote:
the fundamentalists believe life starts at conception and medical science does not support that view.


Actually everything I've read on science supports the view that life begins at conception.

This just proves how moronic the GOP and Far Right are- If they went the scientific route, they could make a far more convincing case. Such a lack of judgment and outreach as that is one reason I seriously question the capacity of such a constituency and the politicians that represent them.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
Obama DID come out of nowhere. He wasnít initially a part of the ĎWardí politics of Chicago. He was even an outsider to the Black politicos of Chicago initially. His rise came from an outsider NOT an insider. Eventually one becomes an insider organically. The point is he was not some insider initially.


Obama headed up Harvard Law Review. That's the equivalent of being a McDonald's All-American and saying he "came out of nowhere" to take the NBA by storm because he didn't play college ball.


I don't get the sports reference, Steelrails. But being President of a Law Review means something to a law firm. Being President of Harvard's Law Review is an entry ticket to just about any top law firm. Yet, the position means nothing in the context of high office. If that's what your sports reference meant to reflect, I agree with you.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Black a couple of points. Chicago's infrastructure is not crumbling. Americans can travel to Cuba. You really should maybe at least travel to the U.S. before writing about it.


Ironic huh
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
Obama DID come out of nowhere. He wasnít initially a part of the ĎWardí politics of Chicago. He was even an outsider to the Black politicos of Chicago initially. His rise came from an outsider NOT an insider. Eventually one becomes an insider organically. The point is he was not some insider initially.


Obama headed up Harvard Law Review. That's the equivalent of being a McDonald's All-American and saying he "came out of nowhere" to take the NBA by storm because he didn't play college ball.


I don't get the sports reference, Steelrails. But being President of a Law Review means something to a law firm. Being President of Harvard's Law Review is an entry ticket to just about any top law firm. Yet, the position means nothing in the context of high office. If that's what your sports reference meant to reflect, I agree with you.


And being a top lawyer, with those kind of credentials, is often a ticket into the political game (if one wants to go that route).

It's like saying someone who was in Skull & Bones "came out of nowhere". It's like saying the next Sanjay Gupta celebrity medical guru who has a degree from Johns Hopkins and was the editor of The New England Journal of Medicine was coming out of nowhere. Just because you hadn't heard of them doesn't mean that they came out of nowhere. It just means you're not in the loop.

Seriously, I guy who was the President of the Harvard Law Review came out of nowhere??? How is Harvard 'out of nowhere'? Out of nowhere is something like Alcorn St. Art Dept, not Harvard Law Review.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Kuros wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
Obama DID come out of nowhere. He wasnít initially a part of the ĎWardí politics of Chicago. He was even an outsider to the Black politicos of Chicago initially. His rise came from an outsider NOT an insider. Eventually one becomes an insider organically. The point is he was not some insider initially.


Obama headed up Harvard Law Review. That's the equivalent of being a McDonald's All-American and saying he "came out of nowhere" to take the NBA by storm because he didn't play college ball.


I don't get the sports reference, Steelrails. But being President of a Law Review means something to a law firm. Being President of Harvard's Law Review is an entry ticket to just about any top law firm. Yet, the position means nothing in the context of high office. If that's what your sports reference meant to reflect, I agree with you.


And being a top lawyer, with those kind of credentials, is often a ticket into the political game (if one wants to go that route).


Yeah, but Obama never built up the experience. His time in the Federal Senate was spent campaigning and getting his name put on others's bills. He had to lean on his Harvard Law Review credentials because his accomplishments were so light. And here we are . . .
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wishfullthinkng



Joined: 05 Mar 2010

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GF wrote:
sirius black wrote:
My point was that the religious rights opposition was based on religious reasons.


Not exactly. Their opposition is based on natural law, even if they themselves donít realize it. Natural law refers to moral truths apparent to human reason, and is distinguishable from divine law, which is mysterious and hidden from reason. Only the latter can properly be called religious.

Natural law is integrated into orthodox religion and there bound closely to divine law; so closely in fact that many will not be able to distinguish the two. And this is fine, because from the religious point of few, God is the author of both. But if you have followed the distinctions I've made, you can see that natural law is not inherently religious.

And this is why, as I noted, it is possible for atheists and materialists to feel and reason their way to many of the same natural moral truths taught by orthodox religions, whereas they will not reason their way to supernatural faith in the Holy Trinity.

Quote:
I don't like seeing two men kissing and may personally be turned off seeng a married gay couple


Why don't you listen to your gut?

Quote:
but I can't deny their right to marry any more than I can two peope of different religoius faiths or races.


Thatís like saying you canít deny a cannibalís right to eat human flesh any more than you can his right to eat potato chips.

Quote:
As for abortion, the fundamentalists believe life starts at conception and medical science does not support that view.


Medical science denies that cells are alive?




holy tap dancing jesus, stupidity abounds.

GF wrote:
why don't you listen to your gut?

i know you are being idiomatic with that, but if that were the case we'd never have invented air planes because many people though our place was on terra firma and not in the air. that is just one simple example but i could go on and on.

GF wrote:
Thatís like saying you canít deny a cannibalís right to eat human flesh any more than you can his right to eat potato chips.

and this is you saying that if you wanted, you reserve the right to keep him from eating anything, be it human flesh or his potato chips based on your religious zealousness.
news flash: you don't have that right.

GF wrote:
Medical science denies that cells are alive?

if you are seriously using this as an anti-abortion argument then anytime you disinfect your hands or even use listerine you are causing genocide on a massive scale. you will probably take the argument that human life is more important than all other life, which a person who seems to be as small minded as yourself probably would.

get off your high horse and come back down to reality where sky deities don't control everything we do or say.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wishfullthinkng wrote:
you will probably take the argument that human life is more important than all other life, which a person who seems to be as small minded as yourself probably would.


Human life is more important than all other life (that we know of).
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