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Korea: The Impossible Country
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
nautilus wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Yeah because you automatically know better than this guy... Laughing


?

I know when an ajosshi gives me an angry stare.

My experience is slightly different to the author of that book. That does not mean either of us wrong, just that we have differing impressions.


I agree that passive-agressive stares are less frequent than ten years ago.
But to say "now nobody cares' is a glib exagerration.


Seriously, the guy covers Korea for a living for the Economist. He speaks colloquial Korean. I think his opinion has some worth....



Which is exactly why he isn't representative of most ex-pats, and therefore doesn't 'know more' or less than anyone else, just different.

He's probably able to ingratiate himself better with locals than most foreigners, so of course his view will tend to be rose-colored.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Chance wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:
nautilus wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Yeah because you automatically know better than this guy... Laughing


?

I know when an ajosshi gives me an angry stare.

My experience is slightly different to the author of that book. That does not mean either of us wrong, just that we have differing impressions.


I agree that passive-agressive stares are less frequent than ten years ago.
But to say "now nobody cares' is a glib exagerration.


Seriously, the guy covers Korea for a living for the Economist. He speaks colloquial Korean. I think his opinion has some worth....



Which is exactly why he isn't representative of most ex-pats, and therefore doesn't 'know more' or less than anyone else, just different.

He's probably able to ingratiate himself better with locals than most foreigners, so of course his view will tend to be rose-colored.


Yeah so because he knows Korean his viewed is warped...got it,

Good lord this is pure comedy.

How are YOU any more "representative" of "most expats" Dave?

Oh and by the way, his book is NOT about expats it is about KOREA itself.....so his perspective seems to be quite interesting there. The people he interviewed and his research seems to be pretty solid...but wait where is your book?
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Savant



Joined: 25 May 2007

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
Dave Chance wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:
nautilus wrote:
PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Yeah because you automatically know better than this guy... Laughing


?

I know when an ajosshi gives me an angry stare.

My experience is slightly different to the author of that book. That does not mean either of us wrong, just that we have differing impressions.


I agree that passive-agressive stares are less frequent than ten years ago.
But to say "now nobody cares' is a glib exagerration.


Seriously, the guy covers Korea for a living for the Economist. He speaks colloquial Korean. I think his opinion has some worth....



Which is exactly why he isn't representative of most ex-pats, and therefore doesn't 'know more' or less than anyone else, just different.

He's probably able to ingratiate himself better with locals than most foreigners, so of course his view will tend to be rose-colored.


Yeah so because he knows Korean his viewed is warped...got it,

Good lord this is pure comedy.

How are YOU any more "representative" of "most expats" Dave?

Oh and by the way, his book is NOT about expats it is about KOREA itself.....so his perspective seems to be quite interesting there. The people he interviewed and his research seems to be pretty solid...but wait where is your book?


I don't see where anyone said that his view is warped; just written from his own perspective which may not be absolutely correct.

No, what is timeless comedy is your regular like clockwork belittling attempts at anyone who wants to bring up a differing opinion to your own or someone you agree with strongly. Your comments read like typical Korean top down management policy. This is what it is and there can be no dissenting; just follow me cause I'm the boss who knows best.

I intend to read the book as I like to learn about Korea and I still hold out hope for this "Impossible Country". That does not refrain me from voicing negative comments based on my cultural observations and daily experiences. Then again, I am just another "expat".

Daniel Tudor has tried to paint Korea with a positive outlook. He may be right with some opinions but he may be wrong on others. It's called perspective for a reason. He just happened to write a book of his.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
a lot of people generate more staring or see more out there then there probably is when they glare about looking out for people who might stare. Give it a try nautilus, check out other foreigners out and about and I bet it will not take long before you spot one of those angry-challenge-in-the-eyes fellow foreigner who has his head ona swivel looking out for all possible offensive staring.

Then, look at how many stares he or she provokes by doing this...it is hilarious.


You're an attention-seeking troll of course but lets indulge your observation for a moment.

If true that many foreigners in Korea are paranoid and on the offense regarding staring, what do you think might possibly have caused this?

Personally i don't care too much about the stares unless a) I'm already in a really bad mood or b) They bother someone that I am with
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not attention seeking at all Nautilus and not a troll, sorry.

Now you are diverting from what you said about this author....

EDIT: not your comments I was responding to nautilus, apologies.


Last edited by PatrickGHBusan on Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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tiger fancini



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Chance wrote:
He's probably able to ingratiate himself better with locals than most foreigners, so of course his view will tend to be rose-colored.


He's written a book on Korea, and Korean people. He can speak Korean well enough to interview Korean people. Rose-colored is not a word I'd use to describe his view.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

Now you are diverting from what you said about this author....


Authors are under pressure to keep a positive spin.

There is no writer who would represent the negativity in Korea. They would lose credibility, they would not be published. Besides, nobody really wants to read negative things, even if they are true. Successful books have a feelgood factor. Negtivity does not sell.


That does not mean that many foreigners living in Korea- particularly white males- are not subjected to a strong undercurrent of hostility. The author said "Nowadays nobody cares". That is an exagerration. Many days I get passive agressive stares from the moment I leave my front door. Usually I simply ignore them but you cannot blame foreigners for losing it from time to time.

I don't mind the curious or friendly looks, I don't mind glances. But when you have ajosshis boring into the back of your head for minutes at a time, and who do not look away, then that is interpreted as aggressive in any culture I'm afraid. They're purposely trying to intimidate.

Korea has, famously, been a xenophobic inward-looking country for centuries. The hermit kingdom. You have only to read accounts from 300, 400 years ago if you don't believe me.

That just does not dissapear overnight I'm afraid.
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ilikekimchi



Joined: 11 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
nautilus wrote:
DanielTudor wrote:
When I first came I would get on the metro and old men would stare at me with this get-out-of-my-country look, but now no one cares.


Those stares still happen a lot.

Only difference is that in time they cease to bother you and you so you notice them less.


Yeah because you automatically know better than this guy... Laughing


You did that Laughing again. Not only does it never get tired or predictable, it makes you appear more articulate. Good job, you showed him!
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Which is exactly why he isn't representative of most ex-pats...



Savant wrote:
I don't see where anyone said that his view is warped; just written from his own perspective which may not be absolutely correct.

.

'
Arguable of course but if he isn't representative of most expats it could be claimed that his view is warped as he is clearly different from the norm.

That aside when I see somebody making remarks like "he isn't representative of most ex-pats" I tend to question the basis for this claim because quite obviously no single person is friends with/knows most ex=pats in Korea anyway. That would be quite a feat considering there is well over a million or so.
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: sokcho

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Transient (or even long-term) efl teachers are small potatoes in Korea. Kudos to this guy with his larger experience for publishing a book about the bigger picture, not an easy task.

Staring simply because one is foreign has absolutely diminished in the last few years, even in the sticks, unless there is something otherwise outlandish about your appearance.
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Savant



Joined: 25 May 2007

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Quote:
Which is exactly why he isn't representative of most ex-pats...



Savant wrote:
I don't see where anyone said that his view is warped; just written from his own perspective which may not be absolutely correct.

.

'
Arguable of course but if he isn't representative of most expats it could be claimed that his view is warped as he is clearly different from the norm.

That aside when I see somebody making remarks like "he isn't representative of most ex-pats" I tend to question the basis for this claim because quite obviously no single person is friends with/knows most ex=pats in Korea anyway. That would be quite a feat considering there is well over a million or so.


I agree with you there about not being "representative of most ex-pats" because there is no-one out there who truly is. I think his views could be representative of some expats because what views are the "norm" here?
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schwa wrote:

Staring simply because one is foreign has absolutely diminished in the last few years, even in the sticks, unless there is something otherwise outlandish about your appearance.


With respect shwa you are older, probably with grey hair. That means you are adjudged to present no threat. Also they are traditionally programmed not to make eye contact with older people.

So you're obviously in the demographic that does not get stares.


if however you are a young good-looking foreign male, you will be viewed as the enemy instantly and treated with relentless death stares and other things.

Despite what the author wrote, the xenephobia is still on steroids here, invariably among the 45yr+ men. They are the redneck never-had-any-contact-with-outsiders demographic.
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isitts



Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savant wrote:
I don't see where anyone said that his view is warped; just written from his own perspective which may not be absolutely correct.†

No, what is timeless comedy is your regular like clockwork belittling attempts at anyone who wants to bring up a differing opinion to your own or someone you agree with strongly. Your comments read like typical Korean top down management policy. This is what it is and there can be no dissenting; just follow me cause I'm the boss who knows best.

I intend to read the book as I like to learn about Korea and I still hold out hope for this "Impossible Country". That does not refrain me from voicing negative comments based on my cultural observations and daily experiences. Then again, I am just another "expat".

Daniel Tudor has tried to paint Korea with a positive outlook. He may be right with some opinions but he may be wrong on others. It's called perspective for a reason. He just happened to write a book of his.


+1
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daniel: The austronaut Yi So-yeon. I didnít know what I was going to ask her, I just wanted to talk to her and see what came out of it. She came out with all this stuff about womenís place in society, how hard it is, how you have to achieve so much and not be able to sit back and relax. Itís full of all these ideas about that Ė I got 1000% more than I expected from her. The way she thinks about Korea is similar to how I think about it.


She's my FB friend Very Happy
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am looking forward to reading a book about KOREA's recent history, its evolution, its changing society and to hear the take on this from Korean's themselves. This book is not about expats, nor about their perspective as expats in Korea, except perhaps in passing (unless I am mistaking what I read so far).

As for staring that side issue was not part of this until a poster in here fished out a one-liner the author said somewhere about it.

The debate on staring will never end because it is so dependent on each person's perspective. Some see staring everywhere, consider it to be aggressive or mean spirited while others do not see much of it or see it as curiosity by locals...the reality probably stands in the middle of these perceptions somewhere. Has staring diminished in Korea over the years? That seems likely. How prevalent was it say 10 year ago? Hard to say or measure.
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