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background checks legal?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildbore wrote:
[q

Deal with what? I think most of us would rather live in a country where crime is taken seriously (USA, Canada, EU, etc.), unlike Korea where rape, spousal abuse, white collar crimes, and drunken violence mostly go unpunished.




And you are living where...?
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildbore wrote:
ttompatz wrote:
Don't like it... deal with your own government, whose systems are broken, and who have criminalized just about 25% of their own population.

.


Maybe look at the facts... crime in USA is on a long-term downtrend, Korea is rising.

Deal with what? I think most of us would rather live in a country where crime is taken seriously (USA, Canada, EU, etc.), unlike Korea where rape, spousal abuse, white collar crimes, and drunken violence mostly go unpunished. Korea is one of the few developed countries that alcohol intoxication can still be used as a defense in court. In addition, you can sometimes avoid serious charges or a fair sentence by "paying off the victim."

Welcome to the broken system, the Korean justice system.


I wouldn't be putting Canada, the UK, the EU or Australia in the same category as the US.

Uncle Sam is BROKEN:

From the US Department of Justice:
The United States' incarceration rate is, according to 2009 figures, 743 persons imprisoned per 100,000 (as of 2009). The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p09.pdf

In 2006 the incarceration rate in England and Wales was 139 persons imprisoned per 100,000.

In 2006 the incarceration rate in Australia, was 163 prisoners per 100,000
In 2006 the incarceration rate in Canada, was 102 prisoners per 100,000
In 2006 the incarceration rate in Denmark, was 59 prisoners per 100,000

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf

In 2006 the incarceration rate in Korea, was 133 prisoners per 100,000

Seems to be on par with other developed nations.

Just because it is different from your home (where the attitude is lock-em-up) doesn't mean it is broken.

If paying off the victim works (how is that different than paying a fine to the government?) as the punishment it doesn't mean it is wrong; it just means it is different. Learn to play by the rules of the land you live in and don't complain when they criticize YOUR system for being different or broken.

.
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

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howardp



Joined: 28 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:43 am    Post subject: Railing Reply with quote

Reply to Skippy,

Railing against injustices is one of my favorite things to do, so lets start, shall we?
1)Four of last five years I have been in Korea, working. Got a state check, which was not enough for Korea so they changed their own non-rule to nationwide check.
2)As I thought I made the point in my post, THIS NOT A LAW! It is Immigration department rule and unsupported by Korean law! In fact illegal by Korean law!
3/4 You make some good points but my point is that after 3-4 years of this horsepucky no one has had a real fight with Immigration about this!?
5)I believe the reason the world is filled with "illogic and mind bending stupidity" and "not fair" is because people do not fight for their rights and let government and bureaucracies dump all over them.
6)I have been the %#@+*% in Korea for most of last ten years! I know very well how life in Korea works. When my employers have cheated or stolen from me I have fought them and won every time. The CRC was only demanded from a state in 2007-08, then changed to nationwide in 2009-10. I have followed what was going on very carefully, never dreaming it would actually affect me.
And sorry, but I believe I am unable to predict the future by some strange quirk. I simply cannot think at the level of a government peon so do not know what they might do that will impact me. No matter how much I SNOOZE this will not change! It is my curse!
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Skippy



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

howardp wrote:
Reply to Skippy,

Railing against injustices is one of my favorite things to do, so lets start, shall we?
1)Four of last five years I have been in Korea, working. Got a state check, which was not enough for Korea so they changed their own non-rule to nationwide check.


And? I am not surprised. Every year or two, immigration or MOE or some other deperartment changes the requirments or rules. Usually to knee jerk reactions to waygooks behaving badly or typical Korean stereotypes of Foreigners. The state check would have stuck around, if it ,well, had not been abused. People who had crimes in other states, would submit a CRC from another state. Because of those peoples actions, they decided to go with National. It is logical, the govenrment closed up a loophole. It sucks it caught some people, most of those to do with timing. The problem is FBI check can take time. Plus for some people, silly little charges are FBI check.

howardp wrote:

2)As I thought I made the point in my post, THIS NOT A LAW! It is Immigration department rule and unsupported by Korean law! In fact illegal by Korean law!


Actually it is law. It was debated and supported by the Korean legislature. It started with immigration, but over time it was made official. As to if it conflicts with other Korean laws or International laws the Korea say they will follow, I am not so sure. Maybe it is. Still the law is tricky beast. It is constantly changing and means differently things at different times.
http://populargusts.blogspot.kr/2011/12/2011-amendments-to-hagwon-law.html

SO what if you are right and it is illegal. AND? (waiting for the penny......)
What are you expecting? For all of Korea to read you mind and say" Yes. He is right! We are wrong. Let's give him a free pass!"
OR
Are you going to go to immigration and "say NO this is wrong and illegal. I will not submit" and expect the official to type rapidly on his computer, check something, look up with surprise! And say "My God! The waygook is right! Everybody stop. This must change! We are so sorry, here is the visa you want...."

I do not think those things are going to happen.

howardp wrote:

3/4 You make some good points but my point is that after 3-4 years of this horsepucky no one has had a real fight with Immigration about this!?!


I think some people have fought a bit with it. I do not know the details. HOLD ON A SECOND. Did read any of the dozens of links I posted. I bet there was some fights in some of those threads.
Ok back on track, here. Yet, the fight will take time and money. Which many teachers do not have to do. For most people at times the question becomes, "why fight it?" They have no record or problem. Here is the thing, people will not fight YOUR battles for you. So are you going to be the one to stand up and fight this. What is your goal? What's the plan, Stan! Is your plan to complain about this and hope somebody here will say "YES BY GOD, I will fight for this for HIM. To the lawyers!" You might be waiting quite a while.

howardp wrote:

5)I believe the reason the world is filled with "illogic and mind bending stupidity" and "not fair" is because people do not fight for their rights and let government and bureaucracies dump all over them.
!


I agree with this. Sometimes people have to fight for what you believe in. As I said... sometimes, a person can decide to not fight the battles. Find an alternatives. Or sneaky, do both! Once again, are YOU going to FIGHT for this. It is not MY or ANYBODY else's battle, I have no need to fight for this right. Through, if you do decide to form some sort of group or project to fight this, I might donate some money. Really.

howardp wrote:

6)I have been the %#@+*% in Korea for most of last ten years! I know very well how life in Korea works. When my employers have cheated or stolen from me I have fought them and won every time. The CRC was only demanded from a state in 2007-08, then changed to nationwide in 2009-10. I have followed what was going on very carefully, never dreaming it would actually affect me.!


You been following the news good. You fought for what was yours, awesome! Now do you see the lesson in the above paragraph. EVERYTHING CHANGES! ALL THE TIME!. Nothing is is static. You think you have one thing figured out and guess what it will be something else in the future. Expect this. Learn this.
For me, after the second surprise from immigration, I learned this lesson. First was transcripts, second was CRCs. I had enough of being caught flatfooted and decided to be proactive in my survival.
I can sympathize with the changes effecting you. Maybe you where not caught completely by surprise. Yet, you still sound surprised and angry. Sometimes even the best preparation and preparedness will not be enough for the little curve balls life likes to throw. Once again, THIS.... IS.... LIFE!..
Once of my weird survival traits is well, I am a "worry wart". I like to think of all the worst case scenarios. From what if "I miss the plane" to "oh my god, did I turn off the GAS." to "What surprise will I get from immigration this visit." Guess what, I am not surprised when I am given more BS. Well a little surprised.
For example here is one scenario I have thought about lately. Many of the public school programs are now demanding and stipulating that TOEFL certificates be required to teach. For me, I think of "What Ifs". What if MOE wants all E2 teachers to have a degree and a TOEFL certificate to teach anywhere hagwon, public school, tutor, University. It could happen, so what should do I do to prepare if this happens. Hmm, lets check out the ITTT website.

howardp wrote:

And sorry, but I believe I am unable to predict the future by some strange quirk. I simply cannot think at the level of a government peon so do not know what they might do that will impact me. No matter how much I SNOOZE this will not change! It is my curse!


I wrote the previous paragraph before fully reading this statement here. Some of the previous paragraphs answer this.

The thing is you may not be able to KNOW what the future hold exactly, but you can predict it quite well. If you use your noggin. You have a degree right? Use those skills, baby! Research, critical thinking, writing, reading. and so on.

Understanding a government person is easy. It is just understanding human nature and behavior. How people operate and work. If you can get into the pants of women, you should have the skills to understand, how to schmooze a bureaucrat. If you have seen a student time and again who answers a simple sentence question with ONE word. All the time. Congratulations you can understand how a government official works and most people work. If after listening to another waygook whine and complain or 30 minutes and you you you thought "I really don't care". Wow, you understand how most people feel about other people. The buercrate behind the desk does not really care about your trials and tribulations, he cares more about what he or she is going to have for lunch. If you have lived in Korean for over 10 years, you have probably gleaned some of the little intricacies Koreans have and operate by, like the bali bali attitude and the last minute planning. Adjust accordingly. Have you ever had to deal with a complex problem in Korean, like get a car fixed or have a package delivered to another place. I bet you ran into the wall called language often. Yet another thing that reflects onto how people work.

So what are you going do?

You have been given good three options. (actually that might be another thread)

1) Get your record cleaned or charges expunged.
2) Get papers and translations EXPLAINING what the charge is. This is the schmooze option. You want that official to see and understand with nice shiny legalese papers and seals. What the heck your CRC means. You want to get him thinking "This guys charge is missing .... a court appearance?. This guy deserves a break!. I will let this go?" You do not want him thinking "God, I wish this guy would shut up and go away, What is yammering on about! I am going to say NO and get rid of him".
3) Fight the system. Let me reiterate YOU FIGHT THE SYSTEM. Your battle, not mine.

Me I say go with this one.

4) Do all of them!

Here are some more options....
5) Get married to a Korean and accept you will not be able to teach English anymore. You can open a restaurant or follow another passion. Heck you can even do privates.
6) Get an investors visa and run a business.
7) Try for a Korean F2-9 visa. Hope you have the points. Once again teaching is a problem. You have been here 10 years.
Cool Go to another country. The bridge marked Korea is burned, check out China!
9) Bribe, the official.
10) Do the 3 month tourist visa run option, multiple times. Some people have done it for years!
11) Fake the CRC!
12) Find another loophole. Some people have used checks from other countries because they are dual citizens.

Good Luck, I mean it. I hope this works out for you. Do fight this if you can.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever its faults the CBC for e2"s was a good thing. The korean esl world was a sewer for some time. Looking back it is amazing that something horrendous did not happen. I wish it was fair and I truly hope that the Korean government will make changes that help protect children. but this is what is and so Skippy has given you some good advice, fight it, get your record clean or move on.

Really tompatz trying to compare a nation of 28 million with a nation of 32o million is a little silly. But yeah Canada does take crime seriously. Lumped with the U.S. no the U.S is far more diverse in so many ways.
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rollo wrote:

Really tompatz trying to compare a nation of 28 million with a nation of 32o million is a little silly. But yeah Canada does take crime seriously. Lumped with the U.S. no the U.S is far more diverse in so many ways.


Point was that the US justice system is broken.

The stats from the places he compared the US to in the post I was replying to all have comparable stats. (rates of 100-200/100,000).
ALL of the other developed nations (on the planet) with the exception of the US have comparable stats.
Collectively, their respective, combined populations are much larger than the US and the rates are 25% of those in the US (individually or as a group).

Uncle Sam is broken. Before people throw stones at other populations, countries or governments, look at WHY 25% of the US population is criminalized by their own government. Why does NO OTHER developed nation or group of nations have similar stats.

I don't believe that the people (Americans as a whole) are any better or worse than any other population in the developed world ... so it must be something wrong with their systems.

Before people (like the OP) complain about other countries excluding them they should take a look at:
i) the policies of their own government when it comes to the exclusion of foreigners (policies modeled after the US model or reciprocal policies for treatment of their citizens).
ii) and their own government for the inclusion of them as criminals.

.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! The U.S contains populations from all the developed world. it is far more diverse than any other developed country. But lets say it is different , and unique does not mean broken. it has to do with history , culture, and the way crime is viewed more than that the system is broken. I am not really sure about the use of the word developed. A little vague. Also the way statistics are kept in some countries skews the numbers.
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slothrop



Joined: 03 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by slothrop on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:39 pm; edited 5 times in total
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rollo wrote:
Wow! The U.S contains populations from all the developed world. it is far more diverse than any other developed country. But lets say it is different , and unique does not mean broken. it has to do with history , culture, and the way crime is viewed more than that the system is broken. I am not really sure about the use of the word developed. A little vague. Also the way statistics are kept in some countries skews the numbers.


Again... the SYSTEM is broken.

Pick any other G20 country (or country classed as developed in the UN's HDI) and the criminal rates are < 200/100,000 population.

US citizens are not substantially different from nor do I think they are more criminally inclined than citizens of any other G20 country.

ALL of the other G20 countries take crime just as seriously as the Americans.

Why then are the rates in the US up in the 750/100,000 range (4 - 7x higher than the others)?

Broken SYSTEM.

.
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howardp



Joined: 28 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Background checks Reply with quote

To Skippy,
My contention was never that it was illegal to require a CBC(though it may be---ask a lawyer)but that the way its was being implemented was illegal.

I read your link to new hagwon laws(passed in July but reported in December?)which says that a CBC is mandatory----but unless there are further details(I'm sure there are)in the Korean original there is nothing about how evidence shown on BC is evaluated.
Convictions? Dismissals? Plea bargains? Nolo contendere? Legal terms it takes a law school education to understand are being read on background checks and who knows what understanding the Koreans have of these---yet based on what they read they make decisions if someone is allowed to work in Korea.
I was told by two recruiters(one Korean, one a major one in Canada) that any arrest shown on CBC is cause to deny Visa. The details do not matter. Time elapsed since arrest was made does not matter. What the crime was does not matter. If charges were later dropped or dismissed does not matter. Just an arrest matters.
Anyone who has ever been arrested is guilty of something at some time in the past and therefor cannot be allowed to interact with children.

Now this may not be how BC's are actually being used, I don't know.
But if people are being refused Visa's on the assumption that an arrest at any time, on any charge makes them a criminal(gasp!!)---then I would say that's pretty much the definition of discrimination. Which I hope is still against the law in Korea!
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nacho



Joined: 08 Oct 2014

PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: background checks legal? Reply with quote

howardp wrote:


Obviously this is personal with me, as I have been told by two different recruitment agencies that my dissmissed arrest from 25 years ago means I am cannot get Immigrations okay to work in Korea!! This is after I have worked in Korea for 10 YEARS---before the checks started!



An arrest record can be sealed though a lengthy process involving proving factual innocence; however, a conviction that has been dismissed effectively becomes a record of non-conviction. This record will forever and a day show up on your rap sheet as "dismissed". The Koreans will still deny the visa because the record is not clean. Fortunately, Korea does not have a monopoly on EFL. So go forth and enjoy the rest of your life without them.
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