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Commonly misunderstood English words
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everything-is-everything



Joined: 06 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another word is 와이팅 or fighting!

This phrase is just wrong on so many levels Laughing
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alongway



Joined: 02 Jan 2012

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

everything-is-everything wrote:
b-class rambler wrote:

So I'd agree with those saying that the inclusion of 'pension' in Privateer's list, as it was originally, was correct. If Koreans hangeulised and pronounced it in (or as close as they could get to) the way the French word is, then it'd be different. But they don't.


Correct. If you went to England and asked someone about "pensions" they would be confused.

Pension is like arubite. Both words may be well known on continental Europe, but in English speaking countries they are not.

Jeeze, it's so simple, but some hard heads cannot accept this.


Uhuh, so that's why the Guardian, a major news paper in the UK has run several articles about pensions... because no one there knows that word.. right? I'm sure they routinely run articles with words in them they don't expect their readership to understand right?

The Oxford dictionary..and british media are wrong, everything-is-everything is the be all and end all of what words speakers in the UK know.

Quote:

Another word is 와이팅 or fighting!

This phrase is just wrong on so many levels Laughing

Especially with two accepted spellings and you still managed to spell it wrong.

This is another phrase that has come from Japanese, and if you check some of the blogs and forum posts you'll find that native speakers have a really hard time trying to find a good translation for it due to its varied usage. You'll also find that just about any Korean who says it to an English speaker still pronounces it with a Korean pronunciation and don't actually pronounce it as "fighting"
since such a big deal was being made about how koreans pronounced pension. Which is a joke because Korean doesn't allow for that fine grained control of pronunciation of foreign origin words.
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Privateer



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no problem with Koreans using English words in a secondary sense but there is if they think it's the primary sense and are unaware of its wider usage. And I think the word 'pension' as used in Korea doesn't refer to the same type of accommodation it refers to in English anyway.

This is a rough and ready list. Any suggestions for improving it or making the definitions more accurate are welcome.
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alongway



Joined: 02 Jan 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There's no problem with Koreans using English words in a secondary sense but there is if they think it's the primary sense and are unaware of its wider usage.

No, now you're trying to desperately split hairs. Face it, several of you don't really seem to know jack beyond your own isolated bubble of what your idea of English is and utterly refuse to accept the fact that English speakers in other countries use words differently so are trying to contort definitions or continually move the goal posts to try and support your narrow view.
I already gave you dictionary definitions and information about native speakers using cup in exactly the way Koreans do, but you basically just pretended that didn't happen.

Let's look at what we've gone through here:
1)It's not a real word - well okay it's a real word
2)it doesn't really mean what they think it means - actually it does
3)well no english speaker actually uses it or knows what it means - actually they do
4)They don't really pronounce it the same as someone else might - have you ever travelled to all the various english speaking countries? Do you think every single native english speaker has exactly the same pronunciation?
5)It's secondary usage - so what? That is what the word means, many english words have tons of meanings. Are you saying people can't use a word except in it's most commonly accepted form?
6)The meaning doesn't exactly line up specifically 100% with the traditional meaning - neither does the guardian article, apparently some of the entries aren't traditional pensions, but are still referred to as such

The desperate dance is just getting ridiculous. The list is almost entirely Konglish as it is, and really there are tons of better and well thought out Konglish lists out there.
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

www .lastword.com
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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: sokcho

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

b-class rambler wrote:
...I'd agree with those saying that the inclusion of 'pension' in Privateer's list, as it was originally, was correct. If Koreans hangeulised and pronounced it in (or as close as they could get to) the way the French word is, then it'd be different. But they don't.

I agree with this. Actually, I'm surprised that Koreans anglicized the pronunciation in the first place, as other borrowed french-origin words show some attempt at french pronunciation, even common english words like restaurant (레스토랑) or buffet (뷔페). Or other french loan words, like vacances (holidays) or pierrot (clown), which many Koreans nevertheless think are english.


Also, me too, I dont get why alongway insists on being so rude & insulting every time he comments. This thread could simply be a friendly discussion about a language topic which a lot of other people evidently find interesting & informative.

Not something to get your panties in a knot over.
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alongway



Joined: 02 Jan 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schwa wrote:
b-class rambler wrote:
...I'd agree with those saying that the inclusion of 'pension' in Privateer's list, as it was originally, was correct. If Koreans hangeulised and pronounced it in (or as close as they could get to) the way the French word is, then it'd be different. But they don't.

I agree with this. Actually, I'm surprised that Koreans anglicized the pronunciation in the first place, as other borrowed french-origin words show some attempt at french pronunciation, even common english words like restaurant (레스토랑) or buffet (뷔페). Or other french loan words, like vacances (holidays) or pierrot (clown), which many Koreans nevertheless think are english.


Also, me too, I dont get why alongway insists on being so rude & insulting every time he comments. This thread could simply be a friendly discussion about a language topic which a lot of other people evidently find interesting & informative.

Not something to get your panties in a knot over.

They may have anglicized the pronunciation because they got it from English speakers and not French speakers.

As far as being rude and insulting, I'd question why it is that some supposedly educated people can't exercise a modicum of intelligence and critical thinking. Le paul is the prime example as he spent several posts trying to push his imperialistic view that "soccer uniform" is a complete misuse of english despite the fact that hundreds of millions of native english speakers use that phrase, and even when other users pointed that out he stuck his head in the sand and then just resorted to making lame pot shots.

I think it was apparent right from the first post that people weren't really interested in a serious discussion of words as the lack of effort was obvious. As I said a time or two, it would take people all of 30 seconds to a minute to check to see if native speakers outside of your personal circle actually use the words in the way that Koreans do in some cases. When that was pointed out to them, most of them simply started dancing try to come up with more and more reasons that something was being misused despite the fact that it really wasn't.

Let's not forget your last post:
Quote:
Cider definitely warrants inclusion. Classic konglish.

and classic japlish, chinglish, etc.

It would seem that some people just don't like being taken to task for the things they say in open public discussion forums and if that's the case, I might suggest they start a blog and post with the comments disabled or pre-moderated so they can get the result they want. Because honestly if they think they've got all the rights to come in here and just spout ignorance, then I can't see how it is that no one has the right to take them to task for it.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schwa wrote:
b-class rambler wrote:
...I'd agree with those saying that the inclusion of 'pension' in Privateer's list, as it was originally, was correct. If Koreans hangeulised and pronounced it in (or as close as they could get to) the way the French word is, then it'd be different. But they don't.

I agree with this. Actually, I'm surprised that Koreans anglicized the pronunciation in the first place, as other borrowed french-origin words show some attempt at french pronunciation, even common english words like restaurant (레스토랑) or buffet (뷔페). Or other french loan words, like vacances (holidays) or pierrot (clown), which many Koreans nevertheless think are english.


Also, me too, I dont get why alongway insists on being so rude & insulting every time he comments. This thread could simply be a friendly discussion about a language topic which a lot of other people evidently find interesting & informative.

Not something to get your panties in a knot over.


Yeah, I'm feeling the same way about that - seems like he's the one trying to force things on people.

It's not like this is for AN ABSOLUTE TEXT on the subject - it's a discussion, no need to browbeat people.
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b-class rambler



Joined: 25 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Uhuh, so that's why the Guardian, a major news paper in the UK has run several articles about pensions... because no one there knows that word.. right? I'm sure they routinely run articles with words in them they don't expect their readership to understand right?

The Oxford dictionary..and british media are wrong, everything-is-everything is the be all and end all of what words speakers in the UK know.


Plenty of native English speakers in the UK could indeed come across the word 'pension' and understand it as the 'place to stay' meaning, IF it was pronounced the way the French word is, or, in a written article, the context was clear.

I'd bet those Guardian articles were all about travel to continental Europe or continental-style B&B type accommodation, therefore making the context clear. And I'd bet also that both the writers and readers would not pronounce the word in the same way as they would for the "retirement fund" meaning word.

The bottom line remains that if you said the word 'pension' to someone in Britain and pronounced it as the Koreans (and Japanese) do, just about everyone would assume you meant 'retirement fund'. I'm not claiming to be the be all and end all of of what words speakers in the UK know, but having grown up and lived there for several decades and taught in its school system, it wouldn't be too cheeky to say I'm reasonably well placed to judge. Smile
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

b-class rambler wrote:

The bottom line remains that if you said the word 'pension' to someone in Britain and pronounced it as the Koreans (and Japanese) do, just about everyone would assume you meant 'retirement fund'.


I've seen it used in one or two novels from the 1930's to refer to a french hotel.

I've never heard the word used for this in any english-speaking country however.
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le-paul



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alongway wrote:
schwa wrote:
b-class rambler wrote:
...I'd agree with those saying that the inclusion of 'pension' in Privateer's list, as it was originally, was correct. If Koreans hangeulised and pronounced it in (or as close as they could get to) the way the French word is, then it'd be different. But they don't.

I agree with this. Actually, I'm surprised that Koreans anglicized the pronunciation in the first place, as other borrowed french-origin words show some attempt at french pronunciation, even common english words like restaurant (레스토랑) or buffet (뷔페). Or other french loan words, like vacances (holidays) or pierrot (clown), which many Koreans nevertheless think are english.


Also, me too, I dont get why alongway insists on being so rude & insulting every time he comments. This thread could simply be a friendly discussion about a language topic which a lot of other people evidently find interesting & informative.

Not something to get your panties in a knot over.

They may have anglicized the pronunciation because they got it from English speakers and not French speakers.

As far as being rude and insulting, I'd question why it is that some supposedly educated people can't exercise a modicum of intelligence and critical thinking. Le paul is the prime example as he spent several posts trying to push his imperialistic view that "soccer uniform" is a complete misuse of english despite the fact that hundreds of millions of native english speakers use that phrase, and even when other users pointed that out he stuck his head in the sand and then just resorted to making lame pot shots.

I think it was apparent right from the first post that people weren't really interested in a serious discussion of words as the lack of effort was obvious. As I said a time or two, it would take people all of 30 seconds to a minute to check to see if native speakers outside of your personal circle actually use the words in the way that Koreans do in some cases. When that was pointed out to them, most of them simply started dancing try to come up with more and more reasons that something was being misused despite the fact that it really wasn't.

Let's not forget your last post:
Quote:
Cider definitely warrants inclusion. Classic konglish.

and classic japlish, chinglish, etc.

It would seem that some people just don't like being taken to task for the things they say in open public discussion forums and if that's the case, I might suggest they start a blog and post with the comments disabled or pre-moderated so they can get the result they want. Because honestly if they think they've got all the rights to come in here and just spout ignorance, then I can't see how it is that no one has the right to take them to task for it.


ps, sorry but i just had to get the last word in,

yours,

alongtheway
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everything-is-everything



Joined: 06 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alongway wrote:




The Oxford dictionary..and british media are wrong, everything-is-everything is the be all and end all of what words speakers in the UK know.




Where you from? Are you from the UK? I just asked three of my friends from England about the pension thing and they said it would be confusing to most on the British Isles.

So where are you getting your certainty from?

Plus you do realize that the websites you provided are for holiday stays outside of the British Isles on non-English speaking continental Europe?

You do realize this, don't you?

The term is simply not used in English speaking countries. We use cottage, summer home or even chalet, but you will not see one of these places listed as a pension in an English speaking country.








Quote:
Especially with two accepted spellings and you still managed to spell it wrong.

This is another phrase that has come from Japanese, and if you check some of the blogs and forum posts you'll find that native speakers have a really hard time trying to find a good translation for it due to its varied usage. You'll also find that just about any Korean who says it to an English speaker still pronounces it with a Korean pronunciation and don't actually pronounce it as "fighting"
since such a big deal was being made about how koreans pronounced pension. Which is a joke because Korean doesn't allow for that fine grained control of pronunciation of foreign origin words.


Actually I've heard (read it somewhere and saw it on an Arirang broadcast) that the term "fighting" originated in the 1970s in the local boxing community here.

Apparently coaches here would use the word as a sign of encouragement to their boxers.


And because Koreans have difficulty pronouncing the letter "f" we arrived at the pronunciation "white-ting" or "pie'ting".

Furthermore, I've seen Koreans write the word as Fighting when they use the phrase in English. During the World Cup I saw shirts with "Korea Fighting" Laughing So ironic given the political situation on this peninsula.
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alongway



Joined: 02 Jan 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd bet those Guardian articles were all about travel to continental Europe or continental-style B&B type accommodation, therefore making the context clear. And I'd bet also that both the writers and readers would not pronounce the word in the same way as they would for the "retirement fund" meaning word.

And yet they're still being used in a major English news paper in a native English speaking country. If a Korean says "I stayed at a pension last weekend" the context should be quite clear which you are talking about. If you can't figure out the context from that, the issue isn't with the Korean.

Quote:
So where are you getting your certainty from?

As I already said, Webster's Dictionary and the British media. Again, do you think it likely that they would be using words they don't expect their readership to understand?

Quote:
Plus you do realize that the websites you provided are for holiday stays outside of the British Isles on non-English speaking continental Europe?

That's fine, it's still intended for consumption by native English speakers inside a native English speaking country.

Quote:
The term is simply not used in English speaking countries. We use cottage, summer home or even chalet, but you will not see one of these places listed as a pension in an English speaking country.

Of course not, because those things are not what a pension is. There is a very specific definition to what a pension is, but even that definition is somewhat loose in English these days, as the Guardian article shows. At it's basic meaning it's meant to mean hotels and things on continental europe, but both Korea and Japan and possibly some other Asian countries have extended that meaning to include certain kinds of hotels in their countries. Is it an uncommon english word that a lot of teachers here are unlikely to have a lot of experience with? Sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't an English word. You might find that if you spent a lot of time in several English speaking countries that the locals sometimes had a propensity to use certain words more or less, as well as differently. This attempt to pigeon hole certain words really doesn't do this kind of discussion any justice.

Quote:
Actually I've heard (read it somewhere and saw it on an Arirang broadcast) that the term "fighting" originated in the 1970s in the local boxing community here.

Apparently coaches here would use the word as a sign of encouragement to their boxers.


And because Koreans have difficulty pronouncing the letter "f" we arrived at the pronunciation "white-ting" or "pie'ting".

Furthermore, I've seen Koreans write the word as Fighting when they use the phrase in English. During the World Cup I saw shirts with "Korea Fighting" Laughing So ironic given the political situation on this peninsula.

That's got a revisionist sound to it. I'll have to look it up, it was a couple years ago I was reading up on it and read that it came with many other words from Japan. There are a lot of konglish words that first made it from English into Japanese and then into Korean which is why they sometimes have slightly off meanings or sounds.

The wikipedia article on it has 3 citations claiming it's an English loanword, and the first 2 I read don't actually mention that it is that at all (one is only a sentence, and doesn't remotely say anything like that). The third I'll have to read again, but it doesn't exactly seem to say that. They both make a comparison stating that the word 화이팅/파이팅 isn't anything like the actual meaning of the word "Fighting" in English.
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everything-is-everything



Joined: 06 Jun 2011

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude how about you read the thread title, look at your pension argument and kindly place foot in mouth.

I don't even know what your are arguing for.


When Koreans use the word pension when speaking English they should really be saying cottage, summer home or chalet.

Therefore pension in this context is a commonly misused English phrase.



For example:

Me: "So what did you do this past weekend?"

K-student: "I went to a pension."




Confused


You see how this would be confusing to a native English speaker?


Last edited by everything-is-everything on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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alongway



Joined: 02 Jan 2012

PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

everything-is-everything wrote:
Dude how about you read the thread title, look at your pension argument and kindly place foot in mouth.

I don't even know what your are arguing for.


I did

The point was that of course they would never refer to a cottage or a chalet as a pension, there are already well defined words for that. However, the use of Pension isn't strictly limited to just the traditional definition. The guardian article uses it to refer to some places which are not traditional pensions indicating that the meaning is not quite that specific. The dictionary definition doesn't even go into the full definition of the traditional pension, and all Korea and other asian countries have done is extend the definition from continental europe to include asia. Hardly a huge twist or change to a word.
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