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New war on Gaza?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon wrote:
[

You're only talking about what happened after Nov. 13? That seems like kind of an arbitrary starting point. As to the cease fire, the current one was broken by the IDF when they shot a farmer and some teenagers over the border, but luckily the peace has held.



It's not an arbitrary starting point...that's when the ceasefire was announced...and then broken by the rocket launching. The next day Israel responded. Remember we are debating who started this last round of tit-for-tat violence.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First you write

Privateer wrote:


(1) The facts don't fit your claim that Muslim/Arab states are responsible for the UN claim either. Israel and the U.S. are more or less the only ones who deny it.





Then I wrote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
As for being occupied no it is not only disputed by Israel and the U.S. It's also disputed by HAMAS ITSELF.


http://www.unwatch.org/cms.asp?campaign_id=63111&id=2832097

Quote:
Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahhar confirmed there was no Israeli occupation of the territory in comments reported today by the Bethlehem-based Ma’an News Agency.


To which you replied

Privateer wrote:
Fine. They're not occupied. Not the point I was arguing anyway.


Oh really? Mind telling us what point you were arguing in the first quote of yours then?

As for your second point I posted evidence from mainstream sites such as the BBC and the NYT that the Palestinians did initiate this round of violence.
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Palestinian territories are occupied. There may not be settlers in Gaza but Israel certainly maintains a stranglehold on the territory, although it has loosened it;s grip from a death grip to a mere very painful grip.
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Privateer



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
First you write

Privateer wrote:


(1) The facts don't fit your claim that Muslim/Arab states are responsible for the UN claim either. Israel and the U.S. are more or less the only ones who deny it.





Then I wrote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
As for being occupied no it is not only disputed by Israel and the U.S. It's also disputed by HAMAS ITSELF.


http://www.unwatch.org/cms.asp?campaign_id=63111&id=2832097

Quote:
Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahhar confirmed there was no Israeli occupation of the territory in comments reported today by the Bethlehem-based Ma’an News Agency.


To which you replied

Privateer wrote:
Fine. They're not occupied. Not the point I was arguing anyway.


Oh really? Mind telling us what point you were arguing in the first quote of yours then?

As for your second point I posted evidence from mainstream sites such as the BBC and the NYT that the Palestinians did initiate this round of violence.


Hmm. I may have been confused on this point. I took you to be saying the UN is biased against Israel due to Arab state influence, but you were saying the UN claims Palestine is occupied due to Arab/Muslim state influence? I don't think the UN is responding to Arab/Muslim state influence either way. And is the claim that Israel occupies all Gaza or merely that they're illegally occupying land to build new settlements on? The latter is certainly true.

As for mainstream news sites, it's precisely the mainstream news, particularly the anglophone press, and even more particularly the American press, that is biased on this subject. Frankly, I'd rather read a newspaper that took a clear stance on which side in fact broke the ceasefire first. Every time I read or listen to a western news report I feel as if I've jumped into the middle of a conversation because no one lays out the basic facts. And, oddly, the pretense of objectivity anaesthetizes rather than sharpens the mind, it distances one from reality, and leaves one with only a vague sense of what is going on - yet the assumption that the Palestinians started it has been inserted into the discourse nevertheless.
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CyberGuy



Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://ananaddoush.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/israel-palestine.jpg
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Privateer wrote:
[
Hmm. I may have been confused on this point. I took you to be saying the UN is biased against Israel due to Arab state influence, but you were saying the UN claims Palestine is occupied due to Arab/Muslim state influence? I don't think the UN is responding to Arab/Muslim state influence either way. And is the claim that Israel occupies all Gaza or merely that they're illegally occupying land to build new settlements on? The latter is certainly true.



As for mainstream news sites, it's precisely the mainstream news, particularly the anglophone press, and even more particularly the American press, that is biased on this subject. Frankly, I'd rather read a newspaper that took a clear stance on which side in fact broke the ceasefire first. Every time I read or listen to a western news report I feel as if I've jumped into the middle of a conversation because no one lays out the basic facts. And, oddly, the pretense of objectivity anaesthetizes rather than sharpens the mind, it distances one from reality, and leaves one with only a vague sense of what is going on - yet the assumption that the Palestinians started it has been inserted into the discourse nevertheless.


Given the sheer number of Arab/Muslim states and the fact they control the majority of the world's oil...it is impossible to discount their influence...be it at the UN or anywhere else they may be involved in.
That's all that I'm saying. Also as my link pointed out it made a specific point of stating:

Quote:
In recent years, the Middle East was the subject of 76% of country-specific General Assembly resolutions, 100% of the Human Rights Council resolutions, 100% of the Commission on the Status of Women resolutions, 50% of reports from the World Food Programme, 6% of United Nations Security Council resolutions and 6 of the 10 Emergency sessions. Of note is Resolution 3379 (1975) stating that "Zionism is racism"; it was rescinded in 1991.

These decisions, passed with the support of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) countries, invariably criticize Israel for its treatment of Palestinians.


If Arab/Muslim states did not change anything one way or the other why would it make a point of the sentence that I bolded? But let's look at the numbers. There are 193 UN members. There are 57 members in the OIC. Almost a full third (64-65) That's a pretty fair-sized bloc when it comes to voting. And that's without any influence they may be exerting on any other states who might be wavering on the issue. (As Arab states did on Britain during the Mandate.)


So obviously saying that the UN is not affected by Arab/Muslim nations (when they make up almost a third) is inaccurate on the face of it.


http://quitenormal.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/how-un-anti-israel-bias-was-born-and-maintained/




Also you wrote

Quote:
And is the claim that Israel occupies all Gaza or merely that they're illegally occupying land to build new settlements on? The latter is certainly true.


To the best of my knowledge Israel is neither occupying Gaza nor any Gazan land whatsoever (with the exceptions of the crossings...which they are certainly not building new settlements on). I think you may be confusing it with the West Bank.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This seems relevant:

Quote:
The 193-nation U.N. General Assembly on Thursday overwhelmingly approved the de facto recognition of the sovereign state of Palestine after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called on the world body to issue its long overdue "birth certificate."

[...]

The assembly approved the upgrade despite threats by the United States and Israel to punish the Palestinians by withholding funds for the West Bank government. U.N. envoys said Israel might not retaliate harshly against the Palestinians over the vote as long as they do not seek to join the International Criminal Court.

If the Palestinians were to join the ICC, they could file complaints with the court accusing Israel of war crimes, crimes against humanity and other serious crimes.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/sterilize-palestinian-people-dutch-writer-leon-de-winter-says-israeli-ambassador

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0227/p17s01-cogn.html
Quote:
"The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger," Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, told the Israeli media.


When all that stands between you and hundreds of millions of pissed off young men is a decaying superpower, it's probably best to stfu and start negotiating.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
]
Quote:

When all that stands between you and hundreds of millions of pissed off young men is a decaying superpower, it's probably best to stfu and start negotiating.


Been there done that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGWWOtGXTTU


We have two parties here and both think they're negotiating from a position of strength. The Israeli government can flatten Gaza with her (American and German provided, developed and paid for) military might. The Palestinians know Israel won't, because Israel would then be known as the most vile nation to have existed and Jews are very sensitive to how the world perceives them. The Palestinians look at their birthrates and see victory in the long war, though the Israeli's would probably nuke earth to dust before giving up a Judaic majority. The end result of this is the Israeli government offered a respectable deal that they would anyway violate repeatedly and with chutzpah and the Palestinians rejected it (anything less that 100pc of the West Bank is a crap deal to Palestinians) after accepting it.

Both sides assume victory in the future. Everything until victory is a stop-gap; a tactic.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:

When all that stands between you and hundreds of millions of pissed off young men is a decaying superpower, it's probably best to stfu and start negotiating.


Israel is the superpower in the middle east region, and I don't see it decaying.

Last I heard their economy and weapons production systems were doing fine. If they wanted they could probably colonise the entire subcontinent. If they were in fact as hateful and greedy as you make them out to be, they would have done so already.

Maybe its time all those hundreds of millions of young men you speak of started seeking peace instead of war.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Convert.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/print/bill_maher_on_israel_uncut_and_uncensored

Quote:
HJ: It’s no secret you’re not a great admirer of religion. But I’ve seen your live stand-up show and it seemed to me the religion you poke fun of the least is Judaism. Why is that?

BM: We do poke fun of it quite a bit in “Religulous” but I mean it’s certainly not as dangerous as Islam and Christianity. Those are warlike religions.


Big blind spot.

Now, I agree with him. In an age of nuclear weapons the messianic and religious impulses must be discussed openly and honestly, even if it upsets people. His thing is to mock, which I think alienates the necessary audience (Maher preaches to the choir and not the congregation).

He goes on:

Quote:
Actually I took a bible course in college. It’s funny, making the movie “Religulous,” what I found out is that people who are religious have no idea about their own religion. They are completely clueless; they do not know what’s in the Bible. You could quote them something and say it was from the Bible and they would nod their head. I think if they read the bible, especially the Old Testament, I think they would be appalled. If you just told them it was something else, if you just said, ‘Read this story,’ you know, about this God – let’s call him Spor -- and how he’s wiping these people out and ethnically cleaning them for no apparent reason, how he does things on a whim and how he’s jealous; They’d go, ‘This is terrible.’


He says:

1) Judaism is less violent

then

2) Christians don't know their own religion

then

3) The Old Testament (the Judaic Bible) is about god wiping and ethnically cleaning people for no apparent reason.

Fin. Can't make this stuff up.

This guy has a TV show and is a liberal darling. When Maher goes on about Democracy and Human Rights etc re: Israel he's talking up his team.

Are you all starting to see the pattern? American media is terrible. The United States is going off invading and attacking and undermining other nations for the interests of a small group and nobody in the country knows it and even the people driving it don't know why they're driving it.
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