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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: Filibuster Reform |
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Up with Chris Hayes took up the case for filibuster reform this morning.
Up with Chris Hayes link
Right now, the minority can filibuster any measure before it reaches the open floor. The reform proposal would prevent that, and force the minority party to filibuster a bill openly and with substantive argument.
There's an interesting twist. The reform proposal to amend Senate procedure will win on a 51-49 vote. Thereby, the reform proposal, if it passes upon its introduction following the lame duck session, would itself imperil the filibuster itself with its precedent.
I encourage you to watch at the link if you are at all interested. |
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Unibrow
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Obama is trying to take more of our freedoms. This is another step towards communism |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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The American government was set up so as to move very slowly for a reason. Now that the majority of Americans see their government (and the money of fellow citizens) as the solution to all of their problems, that reason has been forgotten. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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comm wrote: |
The American government was set up so as to move very slowly for a reason. Now that the majority of Americans see their government (and the money of fellow citizens) as the solution to all of their problems, that reason has been forgotten. |
The filibuster reform is meant to return the filibuster to its pre-1990 norms. Right now, a single senator can keep a bill FROM REACHING THE SENATE FLOOR, let alone being passed after debate, unless 60 votes can be found to overcome it. That's a broken system. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote: |
The filibuster reform is meant to return the filibuster to its pre-1990 norms. |
That may well be better then. But I hope caution is used when allowing laws to be passed more easily. |
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actionjackson
Joined: 30 Dec 2007 Location: Any place I'm at
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Unibrow wrote: |
Obama is trying to take more of our freedoms. This is another step towards communism |
I'll admit that Obama has a lot of faults but how is he taking away our freedoms when it's the Senate that's trying to enact reform? Maybe they're just trying to get something accomplished.
And besides, this is nothing more than one side trying to get what they want. The Republicans were all in favor of filibuster reform when it suited their needs.
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Senator Bill Frist, R-Tenn. (Senate Majority Leader through 2006)
"In other words, I have sought to address Democrats' grievances while holding true to the core principle of an up-or-down vote. So far, my Democrat colleagues have rejected all efforts at compromise, and continue to insist on a new, 60-vote standard. Such a position is unacceptable."
"One way or another, the filibuster of judicial nominees must end � [This use of filibusters is a] formula for tyranny by the minority." |
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Sen. Jim Bunning, R-Ky.
"The United States Senate faces an unprecedented crisis brought on by the minority party. Judges who have been nominated by the President of the United States to the federal bench have been held up by a filibuster and cannot get a fair up-or-down vote. This unfair tactic is breaking years of Senate tradition. The issue of blatant obstructionism the Democrats are displaying should not be ignored anymore. I support a change in the rules of the Senate to allow for an up-or-down vote on judicial nominations. We must not let the minority party circumvent the Constitution, and take away the right of the President to have his judicial nominees voted on by a simple up-or-down vote." |
And my favorite, simply because his argument is it's unfair.
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Sen. Johnny Isakson, R-Ga.
"Yet for the past two years, the Senate has failed to carry out this duty because the minority party has filibustered several of President Bush's judicial nominees. The minority has blocked the majority from having an up-or-down vote. Not only does the Constitution require an up-or-down vote, denial of an up-or-down vote goes against basic principles of fairness; it also is unprecedented in Senate history." |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Put me square in Comm's conrner on this. We don't need to make laws or spend money any easier than we can now. In fact, I'd be for getting rid of the filibuster (waste of time) and just saying nothing gets out of committe and nothing passes into law without a 60% super-majority. If you can't get 60 Senators to agree on something than maybe it is flawed. And, if politics get in the way then we need to change our politics or do nothing. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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You know who ought to have veto authority? The President of the United States.
You know who oughtn't have veto authority? 41 Senators.
People talking about how it needs to be harder to pass laws (or shouldn't be any easier) are completely wrong-headed on this issue. A law already has four potential hurdles:
1) Passing the House
2) Passing the Senate
3) Avoiding Presidential Veto or Requiring Super-majority Legislative Support
4) Avoiding Elimination by Judicial Review
De facto veto authority is not something we need to hand to a 41% minority of Senators; those elected to govern need to be able to actually govern. It's not even just about laws: minority senators regularly block judicial appointments, for example, something which has been a huge act of obstruction under Obama in particular.
Filibusters ought to exist, but only in a very limited capacity; it ought to require a filibustering senator to stand on the floor and talk, continuously, for as long as he wishes to filibuster. And if the next senator wants to swap out and continue to talk, that's fine. "We are now entering the tenth day of Senate Republicans continually talking on the debate floor to filibuster," is how a filibuster headline ought to read. It needs to require more effort than a text message, and that effort needs to be both continual and prone to eventual failure, holding back a bad idea long enough for the public to fully understand why it's bad and express their contempt, not simply to quietly veto something you personally disagree with. It needs to be a serious sacrifice of time and effort to ensure it is utilized only in the face of genuinely important issues: if you can't envision spending the next few weeks of your life talking continually, every day, on the Senate floor, you don't care enough to justify a filibuster.
Rome tried the whole, "Let's turn our primary legislative body into an obstructionist mess," approach to political philosophy, and we all know how it turned out: tyranny. When the status quo is unacceptable -- and I think more or less everyone here agrees it is -- obstructionist political philosophy is not what one ought to be embracing. It doesn't need to be easier to spend more money or make more laws? Well should it be harder to spend less money? Should it be harder to reform the complexity of tax law? Because those changes use the same legislative framework, and systematic obstruction hinders them just as much (if not more, since such reforms are generally broad and systematic in nature, and thus much more likely to earn filibuster-inducing ire). |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Fox wrote: |
You know who ought to have veto authority? The President of the United States.
You know who oughtn't have veto authority? 41 Senators.
People talking about how it needs to be harder to pass laws (or shouldn't be any easier) are completely wrong-headed on this issue. A law already has four potential hurdles:
1) Passing the House
2) Passing the Senate
3) Avoiding Presidential Veto or Requiring Super-majority Legislative Support
4) Avoiding Elimination by Judicial Review
De facto veto authority is not something we need to hand to a 41% minority of Senators; those elected to govern need to be able to actually govern. It's not even just about laws: minority senators regularly block judicial appointments, for example, something which has been a huge act of obstruction under Obama in particular.
Filibusters ought to exist, but only in a very limited capacity; it ought to require a filibustering senator to stand on the floor and talk, continuously, for as long as he wishes to filibuster. And if the next senator wants to swap out and continue to talk, that's fine. "We are now entering the tenth day of Senate Republicans continually talking on the debate floor to filibuster," is how a filibuster headline ought to read. It needs to require more effort than a text message, and that effort needs to be both continual and prone to eventual failure, holding back a bad idea long enough for the public to fully understand why it's bad and express their contempt, not simply to quietly veto something you personally disagree with. It needs to be a serious sacrifice of time and effort to ensure it is utilized only in the face of genuinely important issues: if you can't envision spending the next few weeks of your life talking continually, every day, on the Senate floor, you don't care enough to justify a filibuster.
Rome tried the whole, "Let's turn our primary legislative body into an obstructionist mess," approach to political philosophy, and we all know how it turned out: tyranny. When the status quo is unacceptable -- and I think more or less everyone here agrees it is -- obstructionist political philosophy is not what one ought to be embracing. It doesn't need to be easier to spend more money or make more laws? Well should it be harder to spend less money? Should it be harder to reform the complexity of tax law? Because those changes use the same legislative framework, and systematic obstruction hinders them just as much (if not more, since such reforms are generally broad and systematic in nature, and thus much more likely to earn filibuster-inducing ire). |
Thank you voice of reason.
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Put me square in Comm's conrner on this. We don't need to make laws or spend money any easier than we can now. In fact, I'd be for getting rid of the filibuster (waste of time) and just saying nothing gets out of committe and nothing passes into law without a 60% super-majority. If you can't get 60 Senators to agree on something than maybe it is flawed. And, if politics get in the way then we need to change our politics or do nothing. |
You and comm seem to think Congress is prolific with passing bills and making new laws. This might sound snarky, but it is an honest question: what gives you that idea??
And getting 60% of people to agree on a policy is quite difficult even with groups that don't consist of a range of opinions ranging from Coburn of Oklahoma to Sanders of Vermont. The prime example would be California, which has been plagued by inertia in its state legislature due to its 2/3s requirement for passing a budget and tax raises (although I think the budget requirement was finally eliminated a year or two ago). |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
We don't need to make laws or spend money any easier than we can now. In fact, I'd be for getting rid of the filibuster (waste of time) and just saying nothing gets out of committe and nothing passes into law without a 60% super-majority.
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If you want an unadulterated supermajority, amend the Constitution.
As it stands, bills must pass majorities in two chambers. The first represents the raw popular sentiment, supposedly. The Senate reflects the interests of States as equals, Rhode Island possessing all the clout of California. I really think that represents minority interests enough.
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If you can't get 60 Senators to agree on something than maybe it is flawed. |
Or maybe its just too lean on pork for some handful of 'centrists'. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Here's a presentation by Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa for his preferred version of filibuster reform:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/50182699#50168493
He wants 3 days between, while I favor about 6 seconds, but his plan at least leans in the right direction. |
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