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How peaceful was Korea before the North/South divide???
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jammo



Joined: 12 Dec 2008

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please read all the above posts again, check the grammar against your students and come back to me.
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NohopeSeriously



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Chosun dynasty never had any form of stability from the beginning to the end. The first king of the Chosun dynasty persecuted too many people who had helped him. And there were the Confucian-based ideological disputes that didn't bring any progress to the society for several centuries.

You can see the on-going ideological disputes right now in today's South Korean society by looking at the very active Cold War-ish political disputes (communism vs. Socialism vs. democracy). This is all arguably rooted in the Chosun dynasty hundreds of years ago.

Please note that I do have a Christian bias on world history. Some people believe that Japanese Colonialism or American inventions helped South Korea's progress. I think it was the 19-20th century Western missionaries who progressively influenced (South) Korea. Unfortunately the Japanese Colonialism and modern politics after WWII depreciated this.

This is why you cannot ignore Christianity if you happen to live in South Korea.

Just for the historical perspective, you can see that liberal democracy has been a gigantic fraud in South Korea because of the centuries of "ideological" disputes.
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young_clinton



Joined: 09 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the North has always been a little bit distinct from the South due to differences between Shilla and Baekje in the south and the Kogoryo state in the North which was not as civilized as the other two. That is what I have heard. Kogoryo (which was more warlike than the other two southern states) constantly encroached on Baekje eventually taking the area which is now Seoul. Shilla eventually overran most of Kogoryo around the 8th century. The country was further unified when in the 12 century a new dynasty caused the Shilla state to be called Goryeo (which is where the name Korea comes from). Goryeo subjagated all of Korea and some of the area north into China. But this was all a long time ago. I haven't heard of any civil wars in the Joeson state which came a couple hundred years later after Goryeo.

The Joeson state was invaded by the Mongols and became a vassal state of China all the way up to Sino-Japanese war. With the defeat of China it became a vassal state of Japan and later a colony in the early 20th century.


Last edited by young_clinton on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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NohopeSeriously



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

young_clinton wrote:
I believe the North has always been a little bit distinct from the South due to differences between Shilla and Baekje in the south and the Kogoryo state in the North which was not as civilized as the other two. That is what I have heard.


It had been like this even quite recently.

Manchu and Russia had influenced Hamgyeong-do (the northeastern part of North Korea).

Western Europe (Roman Catholicism and Protestantism) had influenced Pyong'an-do and Hwanghae-do (the western part of North Korea).
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

newb wrote:
Korea has been invaded more than 900 times by neighboring countries throughout it's history. After country has been looted and women raped, they'd have to rebuild again and again.


Korea was never able to defend its borders. Its mostly luck that it managed to survive at all.

A big factor was simply by hiding from the world, keeping their existence secret.

Another was the ability to form tactical allies and play off larger powers against eachother.

Another factor was that China did not get off on imperial conquest for most of its history, it did not threaten anyone.

The majority of those 900 "invasions" consist of minor raiding parties. Some were sparked by korean provocations. The French sent ships with troops to attack after Korea killed french catholic missionaries, for example.

Korea is still suffering the cultural effects of thousands of years of victimhood and paranoid isolationism. Which still continues in the DPRK.
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NohopeSeriously



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Korea is still suffering the cultural effects of thousands of years of victimhood and paranoid isolationism. Which still continues in the DPRK.


It's also continuing in South Korea in the form of ideological conflicts in the national scale. South Korea is the only democratic country in the whole world to maintain a nation-wide, state-approved, and especially militarized anti-Communist paranoia well into the 21st century. This nation-wide political attitude is successful because South Korea, as some people understand, is an isolationist country. While other democratic countries overcame this in the 1980-90s.....

Compare to other first world countries, South Korea has a society that is still stuck in the 1950-60s with the worst political issues that hold back the whole country.

Imagine a youthful South Korean man in his 20s. He thinks like a 70-80 year old American man who has experienced the whole Red Scare.... He cannot see the world up to date in the 21st century. Only in South Korea.

Korea, whether it's from the south or from the north, will always be isolated with different reasons.
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andrewchon



Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: In my goshiwon cubicle. Seeking moksha.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answer to the original question of peeacefulness of Korea before 1945: it was a peaceful place.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The paranoia in the South is not fear of communism but fear of the North. The North has sunk South Korean naval vessels shelled fishing villages killing civilians and threatened South Korea with nuclear weapons perhaps a little paranoia is in order
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rollo wrote:
The paranoia in the South is not fear of communism but fear of the North. The North has sunk South Korean naval vessels shelled fishing villages killing civilians and threatened South Korea with nuclear weapons perhaps a little paranoia is in order


Not to mention terrorists attacks against the South over the decades.

Thousands of North Korean refugees have made their way to the South with stories of horror about life in the North.
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thrylos



Joined: 10 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NohopeSeriously wrote:
Please note that I do have a Christian bias on world history. Some people believe that Japanese Colonialism or American inventions helped South Korea's progress. I think it was the 19-20th century Western missionaries who progressively influenced (South) Korea. Unfortunately the Japanese Colonialism and modern politics after WWII depreciated this.

This is why you cannot ignore Christianity if you happen to live in South Korea.


Can you expain/give examples on what you mean here, or give any names of missionaries that did groundbreaking social work prior to WWII? I'm interested in your claim from a historical perspective and doubtful from an ideological one. (I'm NOT trying to start a religious/ atheist war of words).

From my understanding, it wasn't until after the Korean War that many converted to Christianity, not because of any grass-root social development the church(es) did, but because, in borg-like mentality, it was seen as the way to get ahead socially and economically, since most of the (small minority, elite) were Christians, as it was the 'cool' thing to do, in essence supplanting the Confucianism of the extinct Chosun dynasty, not as a result of any 'modernization' or 'progress' led by the church.

Any social influence the church had on the masses came as a result of the devestation after the 1950's, mostly from US military chaplains, which some early Korean pastors took up as they joined the ranks of the 'victorious' and as a political statement against the anti-religious NKs.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thrylos wrote:

Can you expain/give examples on what you mean here, or give any names of missionaries that did groundbreaking social work prior to WWII? I'm interested in your claim from a historical perspective and doubtful from an ideological one. (I'm NOT trying to start a religious/ atheist war of words).

From my understanding, it wasn't until after the Korean War that many converted to Christianity, not because of any grass-root social development the church(es) did, but because, in borg-like mentality, it was seen as the way to get ahead socially and economically.


Christians were persecuted in Korea for centuries- many hundreds were executed.
8000 christians were killed in 1866 alone.

So obviously it was not a way to "get ahead economically".


You asked for names. I'll give you some examples.

Horace Newton Allen established the first modern medical facility in Korea (Now severance hospital).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Newton_Allen

Henry Appenzaller established the first modern school in Korea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Appenzeller

Rosetta Sherwood Hall
Established many institutions of higher learning, including the Pyongyang school for the blind, The Chosun womens medical training institute,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Sherwood_Hall

Mary Scranton founded Ewha University, after devoting years of her life to trying to establish education for women at a time when it was banned in Korea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_F._Scranton


Churches and missionaries have done a huge amount of valuable, selfless work in helping this country from waaaay before the Korean war.

Your simplistic (and disparaging) insinuations do not match the facts I'm afraid.
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s10czar



Joined: 14 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For an excellent run-down on the political/military events that led up to the war I suggest "This Kind of War" by T.R. Fehrenbach.

"Korea had always been a homogeneous nation. There was no difference between the North and South, no cultural line such as divides the United States along the Ohio Valley, no separate ethos, no distinct dialect. The split made absolutely no sense—except to two mutually hostile occupying powers, each with its own irons in the fire."
Fehrenbach, T.R. This Kind of War (p. 25)

There are some absolute gems in this book. For example, in 1946 the whole country (South Korea) was basically being run by low-level guys from the US Army. We actually sent a PFC up north to negotiate water rights with the Soviets! This guy simply agreed to everything the Russians wanted and went home. I mean really WENT HOME. He was a draftee and a month later he was out of the Army.

It's unbelievable to see how far S. Korea has come.
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
A big factor was simply by hiding from the world, keeping their existence secret.


Yes, they had some mysterious fog machine that could cover the peninsula at the push of a button. lol

NO ONE knew about the Korean peninsula - it was such a well kept secret!
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