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Smoking banned at bars in Itaewon/Yongsan-gu
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ More utter nonsense, in case you wondering what blather looks like in print.
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ewlandon



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Location: teacher

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CentralCali wrote:
^ More utter nonsense, in case you wondering what blather looks like in print.



zing
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
12ax7 wrote:

Working at McDonald's doesn't count.



I'd submit that most people working at McDonald's have to deal with customer service in just as rigorous a manner as someone at an upscale restaurant. I'm sorry, but there aren't constant youtube videos of people in upscale restaurants facing violent confrontations and unruly patrons and people making unreasonable demands. That's like someone saying that someone isn't as much of a teacher because they teach elementary and not high school.

I was a GM of a pizza franchise. Daily I had to deal with customer complaints. Sometimes we could fulfill their requests and we did so above and beyond their expectations. Other times what it would take to make them "Happy" was unreasonable and would go against our guidelines and invite future bad relations.

Quote:
It's quite simple. If you want to smoke the cancer sticks, smoke at home. Your addiction does not give you the right to damage the health of others.


It's quite simple. Don't enter private restaurants that offer smoking. Your right to being smoke free ends at a privately owned place. You don't have the right to tell someone if they can smoke in the privacy of their own home. Why in the privacy of their own bar or restaurant?

And I DEMAND that you cease using electricity and batteries and things that pollute. Your life of luxury does not give you the right to subject my body to pollutants.

Or we could reach a compromise- A restaurant that has a sign that says "Smoking Allowed" is a restaurant for smokers. One that says "No Smoking" is a restaurant for non-smokers.

Smokers are offering reasonable compromises. Non-smokers are offering an extreme solution.

Please give me a direct answer to this question -HOW ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A SMOKING RESTAURANT?

Quote:
Smokers are a detriment to everybody's health. it's terribly annoying.


I think if certain people who happened to be smokers were wiped from the planet, it would not be the paradise you envision. Instead you people would just turn on each other and invent some new reason to ban something and tell other people how to live. Maybe it would be meat or alcohol or sugary drinks or fried food. Only this time the shoe would be one the other foot and you might realize that the reasonable measure of "live and let live" and compromise was the right one after all, not obtuse legalism and a sense that the righteousness of your cause enables you to take extreme measures.

Whatever. Just ban tobacco. Give the anti-smoking crowd what they want. Then laugh in 10 years as their best laid plans collapse around a swirl of hypocrisy, organized crime, and corruption as they fail once again to learn from history.


A pizza chain? That made me spit all over my computer screen. In other words, you were insulting people who studied culinary arts.

Live and let live? Coming from a guy who thinks its fine to smoke in a restaurant around kids?

Did I say anything about banning tobacco? I'm for laws which force smokers to be considerate, that's all. If you want to puff away in the comfort of your home until you're blue in the face, go ahead. Just don't be a dick about your addiction, don't force others to inhale your second-hand smoke.

Stop using electricity? Why don't you start? Lead by example since you insist on being sanctimonious about the environment. Start by turning off your computer and never turn it back on again.
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cdninkorea



Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Just don't be a dick about your addiction, don't force others to inhale your second-hand smoke.


Your definition of "force" differs significantly from mine (and Steelrails'). You would only be forced to inhale it in a restaurant if someone forced you to go there (which would be illegal), or if someone lit up in a non-smoking restaurant (which would get them kicked out by the owner). If you willingly enter a smoking restaurant, you are not forced to inhale anything.

We disagree on the nature of property rights, too.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cdninkorea wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
Just don't be a dick about your addiction, don't force others to inhale your second-hand smoke.


Your definition of "force" differs significantly from mine (and Steelrails'). You would only be forced to inhale it in a restaurant if someone forced you to go there (which would be illegal), or if someone lit up in a non-smoking restaurant (which would get them kicked out by the owner). If you willingly enter a smoking restaurant, you are not forced to inhale anything.

We disagree on the nature of property rights, too.


I enter a restaurant first. Nobody is smoking. Then one guy comes in and lights up...He's not only a dick, he's lazy too because the door is just 5 steps away. Being a smoker is not an excuse for acting like an impetuous child.


Last edited by 12ax7 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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drydell



Joined: 01 Oct 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The destructive effects of passive smoking have also been highlighted in the report - an estimated 600,000 people died of passive smoking in 2011, of which 75% were women and children.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/mar/23/tobacco-industry-atlas-smoking

youth in Korea exposed to second hand smoke in the home 37.6% ..

and the Daves smokers think this is all about freedom and being cool..
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I enter a restaurant first. Nobody is smoking.


Were you FORCED to enter that restaurant?

YES OR NO?

No, you were not. You voluntarily chose to enter a restaurant that provides smoking.

Quote:
It's a nice sunday and it's lunchtime and I'd like to take my kids to the local Irish pub to have a tasty sunday roast meal with the family here in my town in Korea - now there's only one such place locally what with it being korea and all. But right now i can't because i don't want my kids breathing smoke while we eat our food. Am I being the unreasonable one in this scenario?


Are you FORCED to go there?

Again, please answer the question. WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

Clearly you never are. Please just admit that fact. No one FORCES you to enter a smoking restaurant. It is you VOLUNTARILY choosing to enter one.

It's telling that no matter how many times that question IS DIRECTLY ASKED, none of the anti-smoking crowd can admit to being FORCED to enter that place. But that is their whole claim? They claim they are forced to endure it. But none of them can actually say that they are FORCED to enter a restaurant that permits smoking.

That's called a liar. Please, just be honest and admit that no legal entity FORCES you to enter smoking establishments. If you really were FORCED you could easily cite incidents which we could all agree with. You cannot.

Why can't you stop lying to yourselves and to us?

STOP LYING

Quote:
A pizza chain? That made me spit all over my computer screen. In other words, you were insulting people who studied culinary arts.


First off, I did a year of HRM before I switched.

Well let me keeps it real. Did you ever deal with 45 orders in an hour? Did you deal with corporate guidelines? Were you ever threatened with violence or armed robbery on the job? Were you responsible for overseeing labor, food cost, and customer service with you as the general manager? I was. I had to deal with all that, plus complaining ghetto customers, people ODing in the back, bums, cops, thugs, and people calling in "I'm in jail".

And our customers were everybit as picky as 5 star.

What, would you have told your employees "I studied Culinary Arts, I know more about how to run this place than you?" You would have ended up stuffed in the top shelf of the walk in by a psycho ex-Marine. Way to sound like some college kid walking into the real world. We had people who worked at our place part time who worked at gourmet restaurants and they said the restaurant was cake compared to what we had to deal with.


Last edited by Steelrails on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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NilesQ



Joined: 27 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a business owner should be able to provide the environment they wish - smoking or non-smoking. However, it must be posted outside the establishment so everyone knows before entering.

Like everything else, health standards would have to be regulated. A smoking establishment would have to have a minimum level of ventilation/air filtration & exchange to be certified, probably would face higher workers health and safety insurance, and have fire supression systems in line with the increased risk of fire.

If a business feels it is more profitable to operate as a smoking establishment, they should be allowed to. I, as a non smoker, have the choice to go to a non smoking establishment if I'm not comfortable in a smoking environment.
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joelove



Joined: 12 May 2011

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hasn't the ban worked well and been accepted in countries where it has been enforced? After a while everybody accepts it and there's no problem. We might smoke a bit less and buildings stink less.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
I enter a restaurant first. Nobody is smoking.


Were you FORCED to enter that restaurant?

YES OR NO?

No, you were not. You voluntarily chose to enter a restaurant that provides smoking.

Quote:
It's a nice sunday and it's lunchtime and I'd like to take my kids to the local Irish pub to have a tasty sunday roast meal with the family here in my town in Korea - now there's only one such place locally what with it being korea and all. But right now i can't because i don't want my kids breathing smoke while we eat our food. Am I being the unreasonable one in this scenario?


Are you FORCED to go there?

Again, please answer the question. WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

Clearly you never are. Please just admit that fact. No one FORCES you to enter a smoking restaurant. It is you VOLUNTARILY choosing to enter one.

It's telling that no matter how many times that question IS DIRECTLY ASKED, none of the anti-smoking crowd can admit to being FORCED to enter that place. But that is their whole claim? They claim they are forced to endure it. But none of them can actually say that they are FORCED to enter a restaurant that permits smoking.

That's called a liar. Please, just be honest and admit that no legal entity FORCES you to enter smoking establishments. If you really were FORCED you could easily cite incidents which we could all agree with. You cannot.

Why can't you stop lying to yourselves and to us?

STOP LYING

Quote:
A pizza chain? That made me spit all over my computer screen. In other words, you were insulting people who studied culinary arts.


First off, I did a year of HRM before I switched.

Well let me keeps it real. Did you ever deal with 45 orders in an hour? Did you deal with corporate guidelines? Were you ever threatened with violence or armed robbery on the job? Were you responsible for overseeing labor, food cost, and customer service with you as the general manager? I was. I had to deal with all that, plus complaining ghetto customers, people ODing in the back, bums, cops, thugs, and people calling in "I'm in jail".

And our customers were everybit as picky as 5 star.

What, would you have told your employees "I studied Culinary Arts, I know more about how to run this place than you?" You would have ended up stuffed in the top shelf of the walk in by a psycho ex-Marine. Way to sound like some college kid walking into the real world. We had people who worked at our place part time who worked at gourmet restaurants and they said the restaurant was cake compared to what we had to deal with.


Whatever. If you say so.

Fact is, smoking will be banned in bars and restaurants in Korea, and it's about time.

Dude, I've seen people smoking in the stairwell at hospitals. I've also had to walk through hallways that were filled with a cloud of smoke before they banned smoking at universities. Nowadays, few of my students smoke, and if they do they smoke outside...So, I no longer get home after work smelling like an ashtray. My dry cleaning bills have gone considerably down because of it.

So banning smoking in restaurants and bars is a bad thing? It's people's rights being eroded? Rolling Eyes

I find the assertion ironic when it's most probably already been banned in restaurants and bars where you are originally from.

You just don't want to be inconvenienced and you don't want to admit the truth, which is that smoking in public not only affects you negatively, it also harms others.

If you want to smoke, feel free to smoke at home. It's not as if smoking is a need, after all. You won't die if you can't have that cigarette right now, will you?
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allovertheplace



Joined: 02 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would actually argue that kids should not be allowed anywhere. I much prefer a smoker to a screaming child.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

allovertheplace wrote:
I would actually argue that kids should not be allowed anywhere. I much prefer a smoker to a screaming child.


I'm sure you were a little angel when you were a kid. Rolling Eyes
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Fact is, smoking will be banned in bars and restaurants in Korea, and it's about time.


Yep, and even in South Korea, the smoking population is in the minority.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You still haven't answered the question- WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

Answer the question.


Last edited by Steelrails on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So banning smoking in restaurants and bars is a bad thing? It's people's rights being eroded?


Yes, because you don't understand how the law works. If people can find cause to ban an activity, such as smoking, in a restaurant or even A PRIVATE CLUB, then they can do things like ban soft drinks, fatty foods, and so on, which they are starting to do in NY.

When you ban in it inside private businesses, places of luxury and places of the night, then ban it outside, you may be able to say that you are protecting people's rights to smoke, though I have to ask WHAT RIGHT IS BEING VIOLATED BY YOU VOLUNTARILY ENTERING A RESTAURANT AND BEING EXPOSED TO SMOKE?

But what are smokers to expect? That you'll stop there? Next people in Apartments will complain about smokers. Next, someone on their own property will not be allowed to smoke outside on their porch. Then parents will be banned from smoking inside if they have children. Where does it stop? It stops in a complete ban of tobacco. Tobacco Prohibition. And since you guys clearly haven't learned from history, you will repeat the same mistakes and suffer the same follies as alcohol and narcotic prohibition.

Quote:
and you don't want to admit the truth, which is that smoking in public not only affects you negatively, it also harms others.


I absolutely agree that smoking is harmful to others. I'll admit that truth. Will you admit that what you really believe is that your right to selfish behavior trumps mine? You can't even admit that you aren't forced to enter restaurants. You want to be able to go in there and dictate to the owners and the other patrons what they should do.

None of us smokers have trouble admitting that. So is loud music. Should there be a decibel cap on rock concerts?

Although I will say that I think second hand smoke dangers are wildly overblown. Basically, in order to become "at risk", you have to be chronically exposed for years on end, basically living with a smoker. Now, you could make the claim that bar employees are like that, though they could have air filters and such. But you must remember, which if you worked in the Culinary industry as you claim, restaurant workers have one of the highest rates of smoking.

Common sense says it should be banned in offices and the like. But places of leisure and luxury? A family owned Kalbi joint? Why can't they make the choice whether or not to allow smoking?
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