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Smoking banned at bars in Itaewon/Yongsan-gu
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
You still haven't answered the question- WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

Answer the question.


Right, so restaurants exist for smokers only?

Tell me, why can't you wait until you're home to smoke a cigarette? Sorry, but acting like an impetuous child stopped being cute when you were three.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Quote:
So banning smoking in restaurants and bars is a bad thing? It's people's rights being eroded?


Yes, because you don't understand how the law works. If people can find cause to ban an activity, such as smoking, in a restaurant or even A PRIVATE CLUB, then they can do things like ban soft drinks, fatty foods, and so on, which they are starting to do in NY.

When you ban in it inside private businesses, places of luxury and places of the night, then ban it outside, you may be able to say that you are protecting people's rights to smoke, though I have to ask WHAT RIGHT IS BEING VIOLATED BY YOU VOLUNTARILY ENTERING A RESTAURANT AND BEING EXPOSED TO SMOKE?

But what are smokers to expect? That you'll stop there? Next people in Apartments will complain about smokers. Next, someone on their own property will not be allowed to smoke outside on their porch. Then parents will be banned from smoking inside if they have children. Where does it stop? It stops in a complete ban of tobacco. Tobacco Prohibition. And since you guys clearly haven't learned from history, you will repeat the same mistakes and suffer the same follies as alcohol and narcotic prohibition.

Quote:
and you don't want to admit the truth, which is that smoking in public not only affects you negatively, it also harms others.


I absolutely agree that smoking is harmful to others. I'll admit that truth. Will you admit that what you really believe is that your right to selfish behavior trumps mine? You can't even admit that you aren't forced to enter restaurants. You want to be able to go in there and dictate to the owners and the other patrons what they should do.

None of us smokers have trouble admitting that. So is loud music. Should there be a decibel cap on rock concerts?

Although I will say that I think second hand smoke dangers are wildly overblown. Basically, in order to become "at risk", you have to be chronically exposed for years on end, basically living with a smoker. Now, you could make the claim that bar employees are like that, though they could have air filters and such. But you must remember, which if you worked in the Culinary industry as you claim, restaurant workers have one of the highest rates of smoking.

Common sense says it should be banned in offices and the like. But places of leisure and luxury? A family owned Kalbi joint? Why can't they make the choice whether or not to allow smoking?


Disingenuous argument. If I stuff myself with pizza, the only person I'm harming is myself. When you smoke in a restaurant you are not only harming yourself, but also the other customers. Moreover, you're creating a dangerous work environment for the employees.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=187276
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tiger fancini



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
You still haven't answered the question- WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

Answer the question.


Right, so restaurants exist for smokers only?

Tell me, why can't you wait until you're home to smoke a cigarette? Sorry, but acting like an impetuous child stopped being cute when you were three.


As I understand it, the question (that was asked many pages ago and has been repeatedly asked of you) was why can't there be 2 restaurants, one that permits smoking and one that doesn't? So some restaurants would exist for smokers only, and some would exist for non-smokers. Then we could all choose for ourselves and be happy.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tiger fancini wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
You still haven't answered the question- WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

Answer the question.


Right, so restaurants exist for smokers only?

Tell me, why can't you wait until you're home to smoke a cigarette? Sorry, but acting like an impetuous child stopped being cute when you were three.


As I understand it, the question (that was asked many pages ago and has been repeatedly asked of you) was why can't there be 2 restaurants, one that permits smoking and one that doesn't? So some restaurants would exist for smokers only, and some would exist for non-smokers. Then we could all choose for ourselves and be happy.


I answered that one in my previous comment. Heck, I've even provided a link. Click on it.

Now answer this...What's wrong with you if you can't wait to be home or outdoors to smoke?


PS. Why is it that I feel like I'm arguing with addicts?
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks to be real.

In Itaewon large establishments like Prost are now non-smoking, signs posted, ashtrays all gone. There are smaller places (but perhaps still larger than the limit) who are ignoring it; one had a sign posted but everyone was smoking anyhow.

The pub owner I talked to said he thought the whole thing was going to get real interesting...
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tiger fancini



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
tiger fancini wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
You still haven't answered the question- WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

Answer the question.


Right, so restaurants exist for smokers only?

Tell me, why can't you wait until you're home to smoke a cigarette? Sorry, but acting like an impetuous child stopped being cute when you were three.


As I understand it, the question (that was asked many pages ago and has been repeatedly asked of you) was why can't there be 2 restaurants, one that permits smoking and one that doesn't? So some restaurants would exist for smokers only, and some would exist for non-smokers. Then we could all choose for ourselves and be happy.


I answered that one in my previous comment. Heck, I've even provided a link. Click on it.


The knowledge that we have about passive smoking now, as opposed to that which we had in 1984, would influence one's decision to patronize or work in a (hypothetical) place that permitted smoking.

12ax7 wrote:
Now answer this...What's wrong with you if you can't wait to be home or outdoors to smoke?


As I've mentioned already, the smokers who go to cinemas, fly on airplanes, visit a multitude of different restaurants can and do wait to be outdoors or at home.

The idea that has been suggested here, allowing some restaurants/bars to permit smoking if they want to - and giving patrons and staff A CHOICE about whether to enter such a place or not, is appealing to smokers. You've offered no reasonable explanation as to why such a choice is abhorrent to non-smokers.


12ax7 wrote:
PS. Why is it that I feel like I'm arguing with addicts?


Because you are. Smokers are addicts. Tobaocco/nicotine is a highly addictive substance which governments allow their citizens to buy with virtually zero regulation. In Seoul at least, it is a substance that is available at dirt-cheap prices, 24/7, usually within less than 5 minutes walking distance from almost any point in the city.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tiger fancini wrote:


12ax7 wrote:
Now answer this...What's wrong with you if you can't wait to be home or outdoors to smoke?


As I've mentioned already, the smokers who go to cinemas, fly on airplanes, visit a multitude of different restaurants can and do wait to be outdoors or at home.

The idea that has been suggested here, allowing some restaurants/bars to permit smoking if they want to - and giving patrons and staff A CHOICE about whether to enter such a place or not, is appealing to smokers. You've offered no reasonable explanation as to why such a choice is abhorrent to non-smokers.


In other words, you didn't click on the link I provided. Fine, whatever. Keep denying that second-hand smoke kills, it only adds weight to my argument.
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tiger fancini



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
tiger fancini wrote:


12ax7 wrote:
Now answer this...What's wrong with you if you can't wait to be home or outdoors to smoke?


As I've mentioned already, the smokers who go to cinemas, fly on airplanes, visit a multitude of different restaurants can and do wait to be outdoors or at home.

The idea that has been suggested here, allowing some restaurants/bars to permit smoking if they want to - and giving patrons and staff A CHOICE about whether to enter such a place or not, is appealing to smokers. You've offered no reasonable explanation as to why such a choice is abhorrent to non-smokers.


In other words, you didn't click on the link I provided. Fine, whatever. Keep denying that second-hand smoke kills, it only adds weight to my argument.


I most certainly have not denied that second-hand smoke kills.

I am asking what is wrong with giving people a choice about entering an environment in which smoking is permitted. Such people would be armed with the knowledge that second-hand smoke may cause serious long-term health problems. They could then use their knowledge to decide whether to enter or not. Do you feel that people can be afforded that choice?
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
You still haven't answered the question- WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

Answer the question.


Right, so restaurants exist for smokers only?


Just like restaurants exist for non-vegetarians only. Oh wait, most restaurants aren't for vegetarians, some are. Why can't it be the same way with smoking.

You still haven't answered the question- WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?




ANSWER THE QUESTION
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I answered that one in my previous comment. Heck, I've even provided a link. Click on it.

Now answer this...What's wrong with you if you can't wait to be home or outdoors to smoke?


First off, as I've stated, most food service employees are smokers themselves. Certainly I wouldn't call night club, strip club, and bar owners the most concerned with long-term health and well-being.

As for why can't I wait? I don't have to. I had an established right. One that involved going to a private place of leisure and purchasing drinks and food, while having the ability to enjoy a smoke with one. The owner of the restaurant enabled that choice, possibly because they are a smoker themselves.

Don't you get it. YOU are the one going in and demanding things should be changed. YOU are the one imposing your values.

You have the right to patronize non-smoking establishments. You have the right to start one of your own. No one forces you to enter a restaurant.

Quote:
PS. Why is it that I feel like I'm arguing with addicts?


Why does it feel like I'm Chris Matthews arguing with Kevin James?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvG7jmk_rXk

I think this happened on a previous thread. I kept on asking that question- How are you forced to enter a restaurant? No one could ever give a straight answer. They knew it completely undermined their argument.

Just answer the question and say that you aren't forced. That you choose to enter and expose yourself to it.
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god of English



Joined: 23 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

When you work there.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

god of English wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
WHEN ARE YOU FORCED TO ENTER A RESTAURANT?

When you work there.


Are you forced to work in a coal mine and be exposed to coal dust? Are you forced to work on a crab boat? Are you forced to be a soldier in the US Army?
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god of English



Joined: 23 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
Are you forced to work in a coal mine and be exposed to coal dust? Are you forced to work on a crab boat? Are you forced to be a soldier in the US Army?

A silly oversimplification and just another example of a smoker trying to rationalize a disgusting habit.

By your "logic" why don't you just pack up and move to a country that allows smoking in restaurants and bars? Are you forced to be an English teacher in Korea?
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KimchiNinja



Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

god of English wrote:
By your "logic" why don't you just pack up and move to a country that allows smoking in restaurants and bars?


Hey wait, I thought that's what we did when we moved here.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

god of English wrote:
Steelrails wrote:
Are you forced to work in a coal mine and be exposed to coal dust? Are you forced to work on a crab boat? Are you forced to be a soldier in the US Army?

A silly oversimplification and just another example of a smoker trying to rationalize a disgusting habit.


A coal miner (or a firefighter) has a substantially increased risk of lung cancer and other ailments. They voluntarily chose to work in a hazardous environment. Same with an employee at a smoky bar. Waiters and waitresses aren't stupid. They know what they're getting into.

Plus, what about restaurants and bars that are family owned and operated? Shouldn't they have the right to chose whether or not they want to deal with smoke? Why should the government tell them that they shouldn't have smoking for "employee safety" if they themselves are both employees and owners?

Heck, smokers, ever willing to compromise and accommodate because we are reasonable people, would be willing to grudgingly accept a ban on smoking in non-family owned and operated establishments. That would cover 95% of places, basically leaving mom & pop chicken shacks or down & out bars as the last options. Even though we still maintain that employees at restaurants, bars, and clubs are IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM FORCED to work at them.

This isn't just about smoking. It's about the right of private business owners to chose certain things. It's about the concept of privacy and the limits to which other people should be able to regulate perfectly legal activities.

Where are the compromise proposals from the anti-smoking crowd? Ban it in government buildings and flights? "Fine" say the smokers. Ban it in office buildings and normal places of commerce? "Fine, makes sense" say the smokers, just let us enjoy a cigarette after work in a bar.

Now anti-smokers want to ban it in restaurants. Most smokers would accept that- no reason a Big Boys at 7PM should have a cloud of smoke.

But when it comes to bars, clubs, strip clubs, and casinos, that's when the argument of "health & safety" really starts to go south. But heck, compromise proposals are offered by smokers.

But that's not enough, it has to banned in private clubs, like Elk's Lodge's. Even VETERANS are banned from smoking in Veteran's Halls. Some anti-smoker thinks its okay to tell a veteran missing a limb that they can't smoke in their private Veteran's Hall.

But that still isn't enough. They want it banned outdoors. They want it banned in apartments. They want it banned if you have kids.

Why is one side so willing to compromise but the other is so unyielding? Doesn't that suggest that one side is a bit off-kilter?

It's not an argument based on rational application of the limits of privacy and safety. Privacy allows us strip clubs. Work place safety allows coal mining. It's an argument based on personal disgust for a personal habit.

That's right-wing fringe thinking.
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