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Syria
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Care to elaborate Kuros?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Turks are major players in Syria. They are the probably the largest foreign influence in Syria right now, although the Saudis are also prominent. I'm sure there are Iranian agents propping up Assad.

At what point is interventionism imperialism, and at what point is it just vanilla interventionism?
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Shall I dump 20 or 30 quotes here by yours about who controls - from top to bottom - American foreign policy?


Dump a thousand if you like. Dump the full text of Protocols of the Elders of Zion while you are at it. Gentiles blaming Jews for their problems is by no means a new phenomenon, and in this case, your real problem is your own "tribe.". Seriously now, if I were a participant some of the crap your gentile-run, gentile-elected government has done, I would probably want to blame another party too. How else could I explain it to the peasantry?

Titus wrote:
It is widely known by all that AIPAC et al will destroy your career if you don't pull the line.


AIPAC can slander one fellow's career into ruins. It can slander ten people's careers into ruins. It cannot ruin the entire federal government, especially between elections. You can keep pretending, if you like, that the entirety of American elected politicians are sniveling, powerless cowards if it pleases you. What I see is some unethical actors having successfully persuaded people -- even people as clever as you, and I do think you are an intelligent fellow -- "Oh, we cannot do anything, because the Jewish lobby has us hand-cuffed. Guess we'll have to keep at our military adventurism. Oh jolly gee darn!".

Titus wrote:
Regarding my tribal loyalties. You're right. I am loyal to my own and when my own are being sent off to die for yours, my tribal loyalties become aggravated. Do you think that unreasonable?


I think it is completely reasonable. It is your credulous analysis that I take issue with, not your completely valid frustrations regarding needless warfare (frustrations you know I share).

Titus wrote:
France led the Libyan adventure and Sarkozy (a Hungarian Jew) ...


A Roman Catholic. See, this is what I am talking about. And if Sarkozy had rejected Levy's recommendations on the matter, I suppose Levy would have ruined his career? This isn't even conspiratorial, it was completely above the table.

Titus wrote:
If Romney in any way threatened the interests of the Lobby he wouldn't have made it beyond the primaries. No matter who wins, you win, and we lose.


Alright, so when one of your hated Jew-bloggers pushes hard for something and gets his way, it is proof of nefarious influence, and when the other pushes hard for something and doesn't get her way (and Rubin pushed Romney hard), evidently it is irrelevant because she spent all that effort and made a public fool of herself playing a game you claim she couldn't lose. Instead of getting to be flawed humans, they are caricatured masks of the grand conspiracy, because blaming "the Jews" is mandatory.

And why do you use the second-person pronoun there? I win? I win what?

Titus wrote:
Hagel has not referenced a nefarious Jewish lobby. He's referenced neo-cons without going into the fact that neo-cons are almost entirely Jewish. But he won't go to war for Israel and as such the lobby will work to destroy him. That is how the Lobby works. It will destroy you if you do not do what it asks.


How has such an enemy of "the Lobby" made it do far in the first place? Why would the omnipotent Elders of Zion tolerate his political existence at all?

I am sympathetic to your opposition to war, Titus. Really sympathetic, probably more outraged by it than you even. But Jews are being used as a smoke-screen here; make Israel vanish on Monday, and by Tuesday the elite of the West will have some other justification for meddling in the Middle East. The entire history of modern Europe has been meddling in the affairs of other nations. Blaming Israel for this is like a life-long alcoholic blaming his new bar buddy for his drinking. Sure, his new buddy wants him to drink, and will encourage it, but he is not the genuine root cause. You like patterns, so look at the historic patterns of Europe and the European people. Peaceful farmers, or ferocious world-conquerors? Gee, hard call.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
The Turks are major players in Syria. They are the probably the largest foreign influence in Syria right now, although the Saudis are also prominent. I'm sure there are Iranian agents propping up Assad.

At what point is interventionism imperialism, and at what point is it just vanilla interventionism?


You believe the Turks are intervening on behalf of democracy?
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jews are being used as a smoke-screen here


180 degrees opposite of the truth.
Quote:

Dump the full text of Protocols of the Elders of Zion


Not necessary when we have Stephen Steinlight (five year Director of National Affairs at the American Jewish Committee:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/back1301.html

Quote:
Unless and until the triumph of campaign finance reform is complete, an extremely unlikely scenario, the great material wealth of the Jewish community will continue to give it significant advantages. We will continue to court and be courted by key figures in Congress. That power is exerted within the political system from the local to national levels through soft money, and especially the provision of out-of-state funds to candidates sympathetic to Israel


The gains from usury bought the government.
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ersatzredux



Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Location: Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like rumours of the regime's impending demise have been greatly exaggerated. Here is Patrick Cockburn:

Quote:
The picture of Syria most common believed abroad is of the rebels closing in on the capital as the Assad government faces defeat in weeks or, at most, a few months. The Secretary General of Nato, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, said last week that the regime is “approaching collapse”. The foreign media consensus is that the rebels are making sweeping gains on all fronts and the end may be nigh. But when one reaches Damascus, it is to discover that the best informed Syrians and foreign diplomats say, on the contrary, that the most recent rebel attacks in the capital had been thrown back by a government counteroffensive..


http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/17/descent-into-holy-war/

So instead of a desperate regime on its last legs resorting to Scuds and chemical weapons, as has been recently portrayed, we have a regime that appears still very much intact and in control of the main population centres.

I think that things may in fact be getting closer to a kind of Libya moment, where the western powers realize that the rebels are in danger of losing altogether without direct military intervention on their own part. They're making the moves, but it seems doubtful that they will roll the dice this time.

Having those Patriot missiles in place to deal with any Syrian retaliation Scuds against Turkey is a necessary first step , but not sufficient. Russia has made it clear another Libya is not on and the recent media campaign probing for splits in their position has come up empty. They won't budge and their missiles are just too good these days. Losses would be simply too high in an air campaign and a ground campaign is out of the question.

And so what is left? Well, I think that something like the "unity government" proposal being floated now by the Syrian foreign minister is likely going to be the way forward eventually. This of course was more or less the Russian position from the beginning, the one that was rejected out of hand by Clinton in favour of abject surrender by the Assad regime as a negotiating starting point. Too bad tens of thousands had to die in the meantime.

But its not a total defeat . It will take Syria years to recover from this, and those Patriot missiles will still come in handy if and or when they start bombing the hell out of Iran. So although Hillary might not get the thrill of another "We came, we saw, he died" moment to gloat at Assad's death, at least she can console herself with that.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g-Jwsmo35fsWkEtVc16SRxIOlzTQ?docId=CNG.36c7489af2e159ad15db4efc71c29397.911


Quote:


Syria jihadists accuse US of keeping Assad in power
(AFP) – 1 day ago
BEIRUT — Syrian jihadist group the Al-Nusra Front, blacklisted by Washington as a terror outfit, has accused the United States of seeking to keep President Bashar al-Assad in power.
"The continued US and international support for prolonging the regime's lifespan by giving extensions (for a political transition), sending observers and trying to negotiate peace is clear to everyone," the group's leader, Abu Mohammed al-Jawlani, said in a voice recording posted online.
"The United States is expressing its failure in the region by putting the Al-Nusra Front on its terror list (merely) for helping the (Syrian) people," he added.
Washington formally designated Al-Nusra as a "foreign terrorist" organisation earlier this month.
Jawlani said the blacklisting had prompted "popular anger among Muslims," including "condemnation from 100 organisations."
In his message, entitled "People of Syria, we sacrifice our souls for you," Jawlani told Syrians: "We have offered you our blood in defending your religion and your lands, and will continue to sacrifice ourselves one after the other."
Al-Nusra has claimed responsibility for the majority of deadly suicide bombings in Syria's 21-month conflict, including an attack on the interior ministry in Damascus on December 12.
Its fighters have also played a major part in battlefield gains made by the rebels in the northwest in recent months.
The mainstream armed opposition National Coalition, recognised by Washington as sole legitimate representative of the Syrian people, called on December 12 for a review of the US blacklisting.
Copyright © 2012 AFP. All rights reserved. More »
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Unibrow



Joined: 20 Aug 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Western powers want another weak "deomcracy" in the region to undermine the axis of resistance. The goal has always been the removal of: 1. Saddam 2. The Islamic Republic of Iran 3. Syria. 1 is accomplished, they are working on 3, and Quadaffi was just a bonus.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unibrow wrote:
The Western powers want another weak "deomcracy" in the region to undermine the axis of resistance. The goal has always been the removal of: 1. Saddam 2. The Islamic Republic of Iran 3. Syria. 1 is accomplished, they are working on 3, and Quadaffi was just a bonus.


Exactly correct.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other day, someone predicted 100,000 Syrians would die in the next year.

An astounding number of people.

On the other hand, we lost 600,000 people while fending off foreign intervention. Grim, I know.

For the interventionists, who should we intervene in favor of, and why?

I don't buy the 'do something' crowd.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9907566/John-Kerry-US-will-empower-Syria-opposition.html

Quote:
The United States will continue to work with its "friends to empower the Syrian opposition," Mr Kerry told reporters during a joint press conference with the Saudi foreign minister.


"Empower". He talks like a bitch yet funnels guns to groups of religious crazies who do what his employers want done.

Empower them to use chemical weapons against civilians?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21841217

Quote:
Syrians trade Khan al-Assal chemical weapons claims

Syrian rebels and the government have accused each other of firing chemical weapons, reportedly killing at least 25 people in the north of the country.

A Syrian minister said it was a "dangerous escalation" and the "first act" of a new rebel authority.

However, both a chemical weapons monitoring body and the US said there was no evidence they had been used.

Both sides say the attack happened in the Khan al-Assal region north of the second city, Aleppo.

The US says it is looking carefully at the allegations, while Russia has backed the Syrian government's claims.

If confirmed, it would be the first time chemical weapons have been used in the two-year Syrian conflict.

"Terrorists launched a missile containing chemical products into the region of Khan al-Assal in the province of Aleppo, killing 15 people, mainly civilians," Sana news agency said.

The government routinely refers to rebels as "terrorists".


They are terrorists. Foreign funded terrorists. The US will look carefully and then ask Israel what the American position is. Russia will support the Syrian gov b/c it wants stability and has an adult view of things.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
They are terrorists. Foreign funded terrorists. The US will look carefully and then ask Israel what the American position is. Russia will support the Syrian gov b/c it wants stability and has an adult view of things.

The funny thing is, the US is trying to claim that the Syrian government used that chemical weapon against its own troops in a territory it controls... and that this is "crossing a red line" that should result in direct intervention.
Wait, no. That's not funny. It's horrific and sad.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't buy the 'do something' crowd.


I thought you were all in favor of spreading 'freedom and democracy'?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ersatzredux wrote:
It looks like rumours of the regime's impending demise have been greatly exaggerated. Here is Patrick Cockburn:

Quote:
The picture of Syria most common believed abroad is of the rebels closing in on the capital as the Assad government faces defeat in weeks or, at most, a few months. The Secretary General of Nato, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, said last week that the regime is “approaching collapse”. The foreign media consensus is that the rebels are making sweeping gains on all fronts and the end may be nigh. But when one reaches Damascus, it is to discover that the best informed Syrians and foreign diplomats say, on the contrary, that the most recent rebel attacks in the capital had been thrown back by a government counteroffensive..


http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/17/descent-into-holy-war/

.


Being able to stave off a rebel attack or two on the capital does not equate a strong regime in control anywhere excepting said capital.

And Counterpunch...Really?

Less than a year ago the Syrian government absolutely refused to talk to the rebels unless they laid down their arms. Now they've done a 180 and claim they are ready to talk to the rebels at any time without those preconditions.

Sounding pretty desperate to me.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
Less than a year ago the Syrian government absolutely refused to talk to the rebels unless they laid down their arms. Now they've done a 180 and claim they are ready to talk to the rebels at any time without those preconditions.

Sounding pretty desperate to me.

The U.S. policy is not to negotiate with terrorists, why should Syria negotiate with the FSA?
But then, when the FSA is free to use chemical weapons against civilians, you really have to weigh that against giving ground to the Islamists.
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