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The war over Hagel is on
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:

Titus, AIPAC's receiving a lot of heat in the media. I think their campaign is backfiring.


Yeah, maybe. I set up an alert for the topic and was going to post the more ridiculous stuff here but there is just too much. The Lobby is out in full force, demanding that the guy who said it exists be discarded because it doesn't exist.

I hope the Lobby is successful. I want the more sane elements of the military to think that normal, open and political ways of dealing with the Lobby are futile and it's time to get more creative.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

9 former ambassadors back Hagel
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't expecting this from Andrew Sullivan:

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/12/sm.html
Quote:
I got a smug email this morning from an antagonist on this issue with the phrase: "Joke's On You." I thought it was revealing. For many fanatically pro-Israel Jewish-Americans I know, it all comes down in the end to tribalism.

But they project that onto others.

I am not a tribal gay; I am a person before I am a gay person. I have attacked HRC in the past in a way that would simply be inconceivable for many Jewish Americans and AIPAC. I oppose hate crime laws; I challenged the priority for employment discrimination laws. I backed the Boy Scouts in their freedom. For the vast bulk of the American Jewish Establishment, this is simply incomprehensible. Why would I betray "your people" as one TNR colleague used to ironically call my fellow gays when talking to me. "My people?" It tells you so much about a mindset. The mindset affects all vulnerable minorities, of course, gays included. But the enforcement of it on Israel questions in Washington is striking. And it is profoundly illiberal. It reflexively and even at this point unconsciously puts tribal loyalty before any argument of any kind. It is why the Middle East is so fucked up. And why on the Israel question, Washington is so fucked up as well.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeffrey American IDF Volunteer Goldberg does his usual dance:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/12/chuck-hagel-and-the-jews/266543/
Quote:
Jews are unpopular when they're powerless. They're unpopular when they're powerful. They might as well be powerful, no? Do you think Stephen Walt is going to suddenly like Jews when Jewish groups lose whatever political influence they have?


Walt as Jew-hater. Constitutionally incapable, and I don't give a damn how high the IQ is, constitutionally incapable of perceiving - to any extent whatsoever - the most fundamental relationship on earth: Action ===> consequence. Walt isn't opposing the non-stop insane war mongering. No. Walt just doesn't like Jews. This is insufferable.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the abject idiocy of the neo-con record, if they object to him, then I support him. Why any neo-con still has a job above janitor, I don't know.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/336271/how-will-victims-hezbollah-react-hagel-nomination-eliana-johnson#


Quote:


How Will Victims of Hezbollah React to a Hagel Nomination?
By Eliana Johnson
December 20, 2012 6:06 P.M. Comments4
Print Text
The opposition to the rumored nomination of former Nebraska senator Chuck Hagel is reaching fever pitch. Reports today indicate it may extend to the gay rights and Cuban-American communities. If the battles rages on, there is another group that may emerge to oppose him, too.

Lynn Smith Derbyshire is the national spokeswoman for Beirut Families, a group of Americans who lost loved ones in Hezbollah’s 1983 attack on the Marine barracks in Beirut; her brother, a Marine helicopter pilot, was one of those murdered in the bombing. Derbyshire tells National Review Online, “It’s very disappointing to me that Senator Hagel has a record of not recognizing the threat of terrorism in the way he’s voted in the Senate.”

Hagel was one of twelve senators who refused to sign a 2006 letter calling on the European Union to designate Hezbollah as a terrorist organization; the letter argued that doing so would “have important symbolic value” and “further cut off funding sources and assets that are used to support Hezbollah’s ongoing terrorist acts.
” Beirut Families has not decided whether it will take an official position on Hagel’s nomination, if it occurs, but Derbyshire says, “I am really concerned that if he becomes secretary of defense, we are going to go in the wrong direction.”
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hezbollah’s 1983 attack...a 2006 letter


I'm curious what GENO123's view is.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before he is anointed as the greatest choice for secretary of defense think Hagel needs to answer questions about why didn't he sign the letter.

Reasonable enough of a request isn't it?
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since when has having Hezbollah on a terrorist-list been a sine qua non for foreign-policy cred?

According to wikipedia, the US didn't put Hezbollah on the list until 1999, 16 years after the attack that Beirut Familes thinks should mandate the group's inclusion.

AND they were removed from the list in 2001, during which time there was Republican control of the Administration, House, and Senate.

They were put back on the list in 2005. But still, Hezbollah's status as an offically designated terrorist group seems to be a lot more negotiable than Hagel's critics would have us believe.

link
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
Since when has having Hezbollah on a terrorist-list been a sine qua non for foreign-policy cred?

According to wikipedia, the US didn't put Hezbollah on the list until 1999, 16 years after the attack that Beirut Familes thinks should mandate the group's inclusion.

AND they were removed from the list in 2001, during which time there was Republican control of the Administration, House, and Senate.

They were put back on the list in 2005. But still, Hezbollah's status as an offically designated terrorist group seems to be a lot more negotiable than Hagel's critics would have us believe.

link


The Wikipedia article is in error- Hezbollah was put on the list in 1997 .

Maybe it took 16 /14 years cause the list wasn't started until 1997 ? In fact Hezbollah was put on the list the very first day the list was started. You sure the Wikipeda article helps Hezbollah? I don't think it is negotiable at all.


http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_847

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_AMIA_bombing

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2011/12/dc_court_iran_showed.php

http://www.cfr.org/terrorist-organizations/al-qaeda-hezbollah-relationship/p11275

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/19/us-usa-treasury-hezbollah-idUSBRE8AI0TK20121119

He would be Sec of defense. Not the head of the department of agriculture . Goes to judgement.He certainly ought to explain why he didn't sign the letter. Or is it that he is beyond being questioned?


Last edited by GENO123 on Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I'm going to pull this card but oh well: the national review? that's one slight grade above the weekly standard these days.

So he didn't sign a letter encouraging the EU to declare Hizballah a terrorist organization. I don't see a problem with that.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why? Especially since AFTER the letter Hezbollah continued to kill US soldiers in Iraq.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
Why? Especially since AFTER the letter Hezbollah continued to kill US soldiers in Iraq.


Lol, well in that case, crap, screw Hagel! I'm getting on the anti-Hagel bandwagon now! Do you have any links to back up that assertion?

Honestly though, any American politician the neo-cons hate, I probably will support.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link was already posted.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/19/us-usa-treasury-hezbollah-idUSBRE8AI0TK20121119
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://freebeacon.com/rejecting-chuck-hagel/

Quote:
Former Republican Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel may no longer be President Obama’s favored pick to run the Defense Department, sources told the Free Beacon.


Great news. Let's get creative.
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