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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
I suppose some of the anti's in this thread would think differently if their life were to be saved by an armed citizen. Maybe not though.


The odds of being attacked in South Korea are slim, and I'd want that guy to be thrown in jail since walking around with a gun is highly illegal here.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schwa wrote:
Died By Bear wrote:
transmogrifier wrote:
Died By Bear wrote:
I'm not really interested in what you would do in NZ or wherever you're from anyway.


That's great, because I'm not really interested in engaging you in conversation.


Great, go tend to your sheep then.

Theres an evident confrontationalism among those who like their guns.


Only when presented with snide remarks like "God bless America" and such. Smile
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
northway wrote:
Died By Bear wrote:
I suppose some of the anti's in this thread would think differently if their life were to be saved by an armed citizen. Maybe not though.


How are you so convinced that the armed citizen is more likely to "save" their compatriots rather than turn the gun on them? Given the above statistics, what scenario do you see the armed citizen interfering in?



Well if your husband were about to slice you into sushi, I would shoot him in the leg. peace.


Laughing

And if space aliens attack, you'll be able to protect us, too?
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
Smart ass remarks aside, I'll tell you a true story that could happen to any of us when we get old.

An old couple were returning home after a summer vacation in California. The traffic got a bit heavy as they entered their home city because it was getting close to rush hour. The elder man driving was trying to change lanes and had his turn signal on. He didn't see the big truck change lanes behind him and overtake him in the right lane, and he thought it was clear - he sideswiped the truck with his Buick. Immediately, he pulled over to survey the damage and exchange insurance information.

But the guy in the truck was having a case of road rage. Apparently he didn't appreciate the older man obeying the speed limit, and had been trying to overtake the old man when he was hit. He was steaming that the old man had hit him and it was clearly his fault, he was mad. He jumped out of the truck and grabbed a big axe out of the bed of his truck. The old man saw him approaching, and turned to get back into his car as the younger man began to swing the axe and destroy the Buick the old couple were driving. The younger man was yelling and swinging away, when a retired fire chief pulled up, took out a gun and shot the young man dead. Left to do his damage, would the younger man go so far as to kill the old couple? IT DOESN'T matter, because it was assault with a deadly weapon. Case closed.

This is a true story. Sorry no link, but I would not type it all out just to yank your chain.

Threat over.


All right. There was this famous gun advocate who shot his wife dead in a domestic dispute, and then (if I remember correctly) he tried to turn the gun on himself and ended up botching the suicide). True story.

Oh, and there was this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X2hqdOMxyM

Shot by his wife.


Last edited by 12ax7 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Died By Bear wrote:
I suppose some of the anti's in this thread would think differently if their life were to be saved by an armed citizen. Maybe not though.


The odds of being attacked in South Korea are slim, and I'd want that guy to be thrown in jail since walking around with a gun is highly illegal here.


That's pretty obvious isn't it 12ax7? I thought the conversation was debating the need for guns in America, as related to the recent school massacre by the nutjob. Look, there's a clear reason why guns are available and legal to own in our country. Crazy people don't need a gun to kill you. Murderers come in all forms wielding all different kinds of weapons. Not everyone is a martial arts master and weight lifter. When you get old, are you going to wait for the police to come and save you when someone gets crazy and decides to pull a knife on you during a home invasion? Maybe you don't have hordes of criminals in your country, but we have a lot of bad people in America - they come here for all sorts of reasons, and they're not the only criminals, but unless you live along the border with Mexico, you will never know first hand what goes on here and why so many people carry. So go on, make your judgements - you live in a relatively safe country right now, and I'll make mine. Live and let live.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Died By Bear wrote:
Smart ass remarks aside, I'll tell you a true story that could happen to any of us when we get old.

An old couple were returning home after a summer vacation in California. The traffic got a bit heavy as they entered their home city because it was getting close to rush hour. The elder man driving was trying to change lanes and had his turn signal on. He didn't see the big truck change lanes behind him and overtake him in the right lane, and he thought it was clear - he sideswiped the truck with his Buick. Immediately, he pulled over to survey the damage and exchange insurance information.

But the guy in the truck was having a case of road rage. Apparently he didn't appreciate the older man obeying the speed limit, and had been trying to overtake the old man when he was hit. He was steaming that the old man had hit him and it was clearly his fault, he was mad. He jumped out of the truck and grabbed a big axe out of the bed of his truck. The old man saw him approaching, and turned to get back into his car as the younger man began to swing the axe and destroy the Buick the old couple were driving. The younger man was yelling and swinging away, when a retired fire chief pulled up, took out a gun and shot the young man dead. Left to do his damage, would the younger man go so far as to kill the old couple? IT DOESN'T matter, because it was assault with a deadly weapon. Case closed.

This is a true story. Sorry no link, but I would not type it all out just to yank your chain.

Threat over.


All right. There was this famous gun advocate who shot his wife dead in a domestic dispute, and then (if I remember correctly) he tried to turn the gun on himself and ended up botching the suicide). True story.

Oh, and there was this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X2hqdOMxyM

Shot by his wife.


Of course those things happen, people lose it all the time, I'm not denying that. On the other hand, there are millions of others that don't do what you mentioned, and live safe and happy lives. Who are you to condemn all of them based on one story? If a gun wasn't available, he/she would've used a knife, or a lamp, or a wrench. It's the behavior that is at issue here, not the delivery method.


Last edited by Died By Bear on Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
Look, there's a clear reason why guns are available and legal to own in our country.


The stats already posted contradict that assertion.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
Died By Bear wrote:
Smart ass remarks aside, I'll tell you a true story that could happen to any of us when we get old.

An old couple were returning home after a summer vacation in California. The traffic got a bit heavy as they entered their home city because it was getting close to rush hour. The elder man driving was trying to change lanes and had his turn signal on. He didn't see the big truck change lanes behind him and overtake him in the right lane, and he thought it was clear - he sideswiped the truck with his Buick. Immediately, he pulled over to survey the damage and exchange insurance information.

But the guy in the truck was having a case of road rage. Apparently he didn't appreciate the older man obeying the speed limit, and had been trying to overtake the old man when he was hit. He was steaming that the old man had hit him and it was clearly his fault, he was mad. He jumped out of the truck and grabbed a big axe out of the bed of his truck. The old man saw him approaching, and turned to get back into his car as the younger man began to swing the axe and destroy the Buick the old couple were driving. The younger man was yelling and swinging away, when a retired fire chief pulled up, took out a gun and shot the young man dead. Left to do his damage, would the younger man go so far as to kill the old couple? IT DOESN'T matter, because it was assault with a deadly weapon. Case closed.

This is a true story. Sorry no link, but I would not type it all out just to yank your chain.

Threat over.


All right. There was this famous gun advocate who shot his wife dead in a domestic dispute, and then (if I remember correctly) he tried to turn the gun on himself and ended up botching the suicide). True story.

Oh, and there was this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X2hqdOMxyM

Shot by his wife.


Of course those things happen, people lose it all the time, I'm not denying that. On the other hand, there are millions of others that don't do what you mentioned, and live safe and happy lives. Who are you to condemn all of them based on one story?


You're going to arm people to the teeth based on one story?
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I edited above.

Not based on one story. Based on the castle doctrine. I'm sure you know what it is, so I won't bother posting it again. Cheers.

Most people are responsible gun owners. Most gun owners would not (imo) get involved in someone else's domestic dispute 'just because they own a gun'. However I personally would never hesitate to put one in his head and two in his chest if my family was threatened with deadly force. That's why we train. To save our lives and our property. Owning a firearm is not mandatory, you do what you have to do, and I do what I have to do. You wait for the police to come save you, and I rely on my training. Transmorg can try to use his muscles to stop an intruder in a home invasion, and I can use my weapon. It's just a matter of personal preference.


If you base your arguments on what's happened in American schools, I don't know if you were around in 1996, Scotland - A gunman opened fire in a primary school, killing sixteen children and one teacher before killing himself.

I do advocate for much more stringent background checks though. I think it's a shame that people with mental disabilities and histories of prescription drug use have access to guns in our country. I'm all for the government making it very difficult and more lengthy in process to own a gun. The real problem with guns in America is the availability of them to criminals and people that would use them for bad intent. If we can stop the illegal sale of guns out of the trunks of cars in violent neighborhoods, I believe we would be on the way to a reform that would change the stats considerably.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
You're going to arm people to the teeth based on one story?

Authoritarians always ask "What should we force people to do?"
On the other hand, I ask "What right do we have to force people to do things?"

Despite the ever increasing reach of the Federal government in American daily life, that pesky Second Amendment has left the authoritarians with the answer of "very little".

But worry not. The average police officer is high-school educated, receives only 2 weeks of firearms training, and is as young as 21 years old. So most of the scary armed citizens on this board are probably more mature, experienced and responsible than the people your government is paying to carry guns around Smile
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I don't carry everywhere I go - even though both my home state and the state I live in have CCL/CHL classes and I am certified. I work on a federal government installation as does my wife and we live on federal land.

A few years ago Nidal Malik Hassan opened up on, and killed a lot of people here, If you're caught carrying concealed on base, you might as well be asking to go to jail for awhile. I've never carried on Federal installations anyway, because getting shot at is the last thing I ever expected.

The rifles and guns usually stay home, in the safe. Except en route to the range.


Quote:
At approximately 1:34 pm local time, Hasan entered his workplace, the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, where personnel receive routine medical treatment immediately prior to and on return from deployment. He was armed with the FN Five-seven pistol, which he had fitted with two Lasermax laser sights: one red, and one green.[18][19] A Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver (an older model) was later found on Hasan's person, but it was not used to shoot any of the victims.[14][20]

According to eyewitnesses, Hasan had taken a seat at an empty table and bowed his head for several seconds when he suddenly stood up, shouted "Allahu Akbar!"[21][22] and opened fire.[23] Witnesses said Hasan initially "sprayed bullets at soldiers in a fanlike motion" before taking aim at individual soldiers.[24] Eyewitness Sgt. Michael Davis said: "The rate of fire was pretty much constant shooting. When I initially heard it it sounded like an M16."[25]

According to testimony from witnesses, Hasan passed up several opportunities to shoot civilians, and instead focused on soldiers in uniform.[29] These soldiers were unable to carry weapons since the base was designated a "gun-free" zone.[3
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: It's not a superiority complex when you really are superior

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
12ax7 wrote:
You're going to arm people to the teeth based on one story?

Authoritarians always ask "What should we force people to do?"
On the other hand, I ask "What right do we have to force people to do things?"

Despite the ever increasing reach of the Federal government in American daily life, that pesky Second Amendment has left the authoritarians with the answer of "very little".

But worry not. The average police officer is high-school educated, receives only 2 weeks of firearms training, and is as young as 21 years old. So most of the scary armed citizens on this board are probably more mature, experienced and responsible than the people your government is paying to carry guns around Smile




On the flip side:

Quote:
Fortunately, police shootings - and those resulting in fatalities - are rare. According to the departmentís Annual Firearms Discharge Report, only 92 bullets were fired between the 35,000 officers on the force. Of those shootings, 19 led to injuries and nine resulted in death.


http://bayside.patch.com/articles/nypd-needs-more-firearms-training-critics-say-03f3fbec


So that's the NY stats for the police. What are they for the general populace of NY?

http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homicides/map

As we see average homicides a year in the Big Apple are nearly 500 per.
And of those 69% are committed with guns.

So as we see far more civilians are killed with guns by other civilians then by the police.




Not that this changes my long-standing opposition to a gun ban...merely showing the other side of the question.
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Zulethe



Joined: 04 Jul 2008

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this has been said before, I apologize but I don't have time to read through this entire thread.

First off, I hate guns and I'm retired military.

Second, I'm currently in the southwest U.S. Most people know about what's going on in Mexico. I guarantee you that if the average Mexican citizen could arm themselves then the cartel's power would diminish exponentially. In Mexico the criminals have the weapons and the average citizen is defenseless to protect himself.

Finally, and I think my most important point is that I did my internship as a therapist at a prison.

Most the prisoners I spoke to who committed robberies and other crimes said that they would never take the chance of robbing an occupied home out of fear of being shot by the owners.

The bottom line: guns are a deterent to crime plain and simple. Therefore as much as I personally dislike them, I'm all for the right to bear arms.
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Died By Bear



Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this one


Founding father


This one is good too

Gun Prohibition

But this one makes my day

Warning


Laughed here

Go to neighbor's house Sign
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madoka



Joined: 27 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Died By Bear wrote:
Not based on one story. Based on the castle doctrine. I'm sure you know what it is, so I won't bother posting it again.


"3 wounded, one intruder dead in Sacramento home invasion" sounds a hellava lot better than "Children executed while attending slumber party."

It's a shame 12ax7 couldn't be there to demonstrate his patented one-shot, one-kill technique against multiple home invaders.

http://www.kcra.com/news/3-wounded-one-intruder-dead-in-Sacramento-home-invasion/-/11797728/17875642/-/2o7y1hz/-/index.html#ixzz2GDifl2HL

Sacramento police are investigating a home invasion robbery on Haven Court that left one intruder dead and three others injured on Saturday.

Police have arrested Thomas Ordonaz, 21. He is charged with assault with a deadly weapon and accessory after the fact.

The incident happened at 3:30 a.m. in the Pocket neighborhood.

Investigators said during the course of the robbery, gunfire was exchanged and total of four people were shot.

Police confirmed one man, who was an intruder, died at the scene; three others were transported to the hospital and are expected to be OK.

At this time, Sacramento police will not release the identity of the shooter or victims.

Several frantic parents showed up to the crime scene to find the street shut down for the investigation.

One man who did not want to be identified said his 12-year-old had spent the night at the house and was there when the shooting took place.

He was waiting to pick him up.

A woman came by to pick up a 1-year-old boy in the home.
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