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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
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| "But I'd like to remind people that if you factored out all black arrests and the black imprisonment rate - let's just say we are going to ignore these and look at the statistics for the white population - arrests and imprisonment are still vastly higher than in England or Japan. So whatever the racial issues involved, it's clear that there's a more general social problem." |
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You claimed that the U.S. would be the most violent even not counting minority crimes, which you now know to be false. What you're now saying is that the arrest/imprisonment rate in the U.S. is astronomical, and this is true. It's also another point against the "Drug War" and the ever-increasing U.S. police state. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Absent the war on drugs, I'm to believe, black people will start behaving like the Swiss? Is that a serious argument or a fit of apologetics?
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/
http://www.colorofcrime.com/
^ Anything and everything you ever wanted to know about race and crime in America.
It is not possible to talk crime, guns, shootings, safety in the USA without dealing with the black issue. If you want citizens to happily give up the right to defend themselves from the urban underclass then we'll need the police to crack some heads in the urban areas. Freedom for all doesn't work. The trade off that seems to work is gun rights for stop/frisk. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Why aren't we using our resources to infiltrate and finding these people who get the guns to people not authorized to get them?
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Most illegal guns can be traced back to a small percentage of dealers. Who these dealers are is not information that the public can access due to NRA backed legislation. Lawsuits are not good for gun industry profits. Even law enforcement has very restricted access to the ATF's gun crime trace database. That means that if police in one state suspect someone of gun trafficking they can not access the ATF's database to see if guns in other states have been traced to this person. Arrests and convictions are not good for gun industry profits. The ATF itself has lacked adequate funds, manpower, and a permanent director for years because of the NRA and the politicians it controls. Robert Ricker, a former NRA insider, admits-
“This is spin. This is what I used to do for the industry,” he says. “The National Rifle Association, every year, is before the appropriations committees on Capitol Hill advocating that ATF's budget be cut. They know that ATF does not have the manpower or the money to do an adequate job enforcing our gun laws.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-553147.html |
Interesting post. Is the NRA that powerful that politicians are overlooking all this?
The ATF has been demonized to some extent (Davidian shootout, etc) but its a shame the source of illegal guns can't be effectively curtailed and from what it seems, its very doable to greatly reduce the access to them. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
Absent the war on drugs, I'm to believe, black people will start behaving like the Swiss? Is that a serious argument or a fit of apologetics?
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/
http://www.colorofcrime.com/
^ Anything and everything you ever wanted to know about race and crime in America.
It is not possible to talk crime, guns, shootings, safety in the USA without dealing with the black issue. If you want citizens to happily give up the right to defend themselves from the urban underclass then we'll need the police to crack some heads in the urban areas. Freedom for all doesn't work. The trade off that seems to work is gun rights for stop/frisk. |
I would suggest Blacks already do. At least the ones who have improved themselves. I would be shocked if Black college graduates commit anywhere close to what under educated and poor Blacks commit in terms of crime.
Also, the percentage of the Black urban males who commit crimes are the minority.
For your assertion to be true, any Black person, no matter what state they are in life, will likely commit crime. I've yet to see any evidence you have that says that.
My assertion holds true. Poverty and education are directly related to crime, especially violent crime. Poor whites, asians, etc. are also the ones committing crime. Improving the chances of success would reduce crime via better schools, ending the drug war, making it difficult to obtain guns, etc. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Why aren't we using our resources to infiltrate and finding these people who get the guns to people not authorized to get them?
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Most illegal guns can be traced back to a small percentage of dealers. Who these dealers are is not information that the public can access due to NRA backed legislation. Lawsuits are not good for gun industry profits. Even law enforcement has very restricted access to the ATF's gun crime trace database. That means that if police in one state suspect someone of gun trafficking they can not access the ATF's database to see if guns in other states have been traced to this person. Arrests and convictions are not good for gun industry profits. The ATF itself has lacked adequate funds, manpower, and a permanent director for years because of the NRA and the politicians it controls. Robert Ricker, a former NRA insider, admits-
“This is spin. This is what I used to do for the industry,” he says. “The National Rifle Association, every year, is before the appropriations committees on Capitol Hill advocating that ATF's budget be cut. They know that ATF does not have the manpower or the money to do an adequate job enforcing our gun laws.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-553147.html |
Ghostrider,
You're a much more effective advocate when you expose the gun lobby than when you target possession of small firearms. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
Blacks of any income group commit crime higher than whites of any income group. The violent crime rate for the kids of affluent blacks is higher than poor whites. Fact. See Color of Crime.
Similarly, females of any income group commit crimes at a lower rate than males of any income group.
Is this because men are less wealthy than women? Are we now to invert the pissing and moaning of women and distribute to men for social justice and social peace? Let's be coherent (to the extent possible).
Simple question for the religious liberal: Blacks are more violent than whites to just about exactly the same extent that men are more violent than women.
Why? Explain both please. |
Any stats outside of the US to back this up? Specifically, the UK, Aus, or Canada?
I've been trying to search it, but having little luck. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| For your assertion to be true, any Black person, no matter what state they are in life, will likely commit crime. I've yet to see any evidence you have that says that |
Do you really think he's saying that ALL black people are predisposed to be criminals? |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| ghostrider wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Why aren't we using our resources to infiltrate and finding these people who get the guns to people not authorized to get them?
|
Most illegal guns can be traced back to a small percentage of dealers. Who these dealers are is not information that the public can access due to NRA backed legislation. Lawsuits are not good for gun industry profits. Even law enforcement has very restricted access to the ATF's gun crime trace database. That means that if police in one state suspect someone of gun trafficking they can not access the ATF's database to see if guns in other states have been traced to this person. Arrests and convictions are not good for gun industry profits. The ATF itself has lacked adequate funds, manpower, and a permanent director for years because of the NRA and the politicians it controls. Robert Ricker, a former NRA insider, admits-
“This is spin. This is what I used to do for the industry,” he says. “The National Rifle Association, every year, is before the appropriations committees on Capitol Hill advocating that ATF's budget be cut. They know that ATF does not have the manpower or the money to do an adequate job enforcing our gun laws.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-553147.html |
Interesting post. Is the NRA that powerful that politicians are overlooking all this?
The ATF has been demonized to some extent (Davidian shootout, etc) but its a shame the source of illegal guns can't be effectively curtailed and from what it seems, its very doable to greatly reduce the access to them. |
The NRA throws a lot of money at politicians in the form of campaign contributions. Politicians also know that millions of NRA members will vote for candidates endorsed by the NRA and that liberals who say that they support gun-control don't usually vote based on the gun-control issue. Even the Democrats have been afraid to stand up to the NRA. Things may be changing..... |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| For your assertion to be true, any Black person, no matter what state they are in life, will likely commit crime. I've yet to see any evidence you have that says that |
Do you really think he's saying that ALL black people are predisposed to be criminals? |
You've seen Titus write this "There is more going on. Genetics and hormones, probably." and you ask that question? You're obviously joking. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| ghostrider wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| ghostrider wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Why aren't we using our resources to infiltrate and finding these people who get the guns to people not authorized to get them?
|
Most illegal guns can be traced back to a small percentage of dealers. Who these dealers are is not information that the public can access due to NRA backed legislation. Lawsuits are not good for gun industry profits. Even law enforcement has very restricted access to the ATF's gun crime trace database. That means that if police in one state suspect someone of gun trafficking they can not access the ATF's database to see if guns in other states have been traced to this person. Arrests and convictions are not good for gun industry profits. The ATF itself has lacked adequate funds, manpower, and a permanent director for years because of the NRA and the politicians it controls. Robert Ricker, a former NRA insider, admits-
“This is spin. This is what I used to do for the industry,” he says. “The National Rifle Association, every year, is before the appropriations committees on Capitol Hill advocating that ATF's budget be cut. They know that ATF does not have the manpower or the money to do an adequate job enforcing our gun laws.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-553147.html |
Interesting post. Is the NRA that powerful that politicians are overlooking all this?
The ATF has been demonized to some extent (Davidian shootout, etc) but its a shame the source of illegal guns can't be effectively curtailed and from what it seems, its very doable to greatly reduce the access to them. |
The NRA throws a lot of money at politicians in the form of campaign contributions. Politicians also know that millions of NRA members will vote for candidates endorsed by the NRA and that liberals who say that they support gun-control don't usually vote based on the gun-control issue. Even the Democrats have been afraid to stand up to the NRA. Things may be changing..... |
Why would the NRA be opposed to getting illegal guns out of the hands of thousands of teens and young people in urban areas? Makes no sense. The amount of killings in the inner city gives the gun control advocates more ammo. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| For your assertion to be true, any Black person, no matter what state they are in life, will likely commit crime. I've yet to see any evidence you have that says that |
Do you really think he's saying that ALL black people are predisposed to be criminals? |
You've seen Titus write this "There is more going on. Genetics and hormones, probably." and you ask that question? You're obviously joking. |
It's a bell curve. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Eugenics will probably get this thread locked. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| For your assertion to be true, any Black person, no matter what state they are in life, will likely commit crime. I've yet to see any evidence you have that says that |
Do you really think he's saying that ALL black people are predisposed to be criminals? |
You've seen Titus write this "There is more going on. Genetics and hormones, probably." and you ask that question? You're obviously joking. |
It's clear you either don't understand, or are unwilling to accept what he's saying. If I say 'men are more violent than women,' it obviously does not mean that all men are violent, or that all men are more violent than all women. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Even if black people are, on average, more aggressive than whites - which is not something you can prove without careful controlled tests, such as twin studies - it is not the reason for the high incarceration rates of black males in the U.S. They have been targeted for many years by the War on Drugs. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| For your assertion to be true, any Black person, no matter what state they are in life, will likely commit crime. I've yet to see any evidence you have that says that |
Do you really think he's saying that ALL black people are predisposed to be criminals? |
You've seen Titus write this "There is more going on. Genetics and hormones, probably." and you ask that question? You're obviously joking. |
It's clear you either don't understand, or are unwilling to accept what he's saying. If I say 'men are more violent than women,' it obviously does not mean that all men are violent, or that all men are more violent than all women. |
No, I understand fully. What is clear is you're making excuses for him. |
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