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The war over Hagel is on
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Titus wrote:
Quote:
It is not supported by the CNN account of official tapes Unless CNN is in on the conspiracy.


I'll trust McGovern over CNN and the NSA. And Mullen, who I doubt flew to Israel to warn them over a USS Liberty event under false information.


Quote:

According to a Haaretz newspaper report on Friday, quoting a source from the Israeli delegation, the Liberty attack was raised in talks regarding Iran, and U.S. operations in the Middle East. While it was stressed that the parties did not discuss operational coordination, it was agreed by both sides that the United States and Israel would want to avoid any sort of 'mistaken confrontation' such as that which occurred when Israeli forces attacked the USS Liberty.



http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/409192893/m/4990030091001


http://www.haaretz.com/news/iran-any-attack-on-our-nuclear-facility-will-be-beginning-of-war-1.249094


And what did Mullen say exactly? Has he said there was an intentional attack? When he says that please post it , Besides Mullen wasn't even in the military in 1967. From what I see McGovern is intentionally misreporting what Mullen said. So lets just call McGovern dishonest right now.



Quote:
I'll trust McGovern over CNN and the NSA



Why? Especially since he is using Alison Weir as a source. At any rate he makes zero mention of the tapes that are on record. Why not?

I will go with CNN the NSA over McGovern and Counterpunch. McGovern is dishonest so forget him.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something called the Emergency Committee for Israel has bought the chuckhagel domain name and set up an anti-Hagel website.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand wrote:
Something called the Emergency Committee for Israel has bought the chuckhagel domain name and set up an anti-Hagel website.


I like how all the "incriminating facts" on that website (at least in the small sample I glanced over) are things regarding which I'm inclined to support him. If this website actually alienates any sizable number of people against Chuck Hagel, then the simple truth is that the American people are not adequate custodians of the worlds most potent military. I mean for God's sake:

Quote:
“We understand Israel’s right to defend itself. We are committed to that right. We have helped Israel defend that right. We will continue to do so. But it should not be at the expense of the Palestinian people–innocent Palestinian people and innocent Israelis who are paying a high price. Both Israelis and Palestinians are trapped in a war not of their making.”


This is a damning, anti-Israel quote? This?
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:


Quote:
“We understand Israel’s right to defend itself. We are committed to that right. We have helped Israel defend that right. We will continue to do so. But it should not be at the expense of the Palestinian people–innocent Palestinian people and innocent Israelis who are paying a high price. Both Israelis and Palestinians are trapped in a war not of their making.”


This is a damning, anti-Israel quote? This?


Time for GENO to pipe in...
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Fox wrote:


Quote:
“We understand Israel’s right to defend itself. We are committed to that right. We have helped Israel defend that right. We will continue to do so. But it should not be at the expense of the Palestinian people–innocent Palestinian people and innocent Israelis who are paying a high price. Both Israelis and Palestinians are trapped in a war not of their making.”


This is a damning, anti-Israel quote? This?


Time for GENO to pipe in...


Nothing wrong with what he said in the least. Why would anyone have a problem with that? Question answered , so lets move on:

What I do have a problem with his not signing a letter asking the EU not to list Hezzbollah as a terror group is there a good reason for him not doing so? Especially since Hezbollah continued to attack US forces in Iraq after the letter and continues to sell drugs and counterfeit US money to this day. So lets turn this around : Lets see someone here say why Hagel was right not to sign the letter.

I hope he gets asked about it, and he isn't let off the hook until he gives a satisfactory answer during his confirmation hearings.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AIPAC won't fight Hagel, but the lawyer who kept O.J. out of jail will.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
AIPAC won't fight Hagel, but the lawyer who kept O.J. out of jail will.


He's like Rush: his opinion shouldn't be news worthy.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:

What I do have a problem with his not signing a letter asking the EU not to list Hezzbollah as a terror group is there a good reason for him not doing so? Especially since Hezbollah continued to attack US forces in Iraq after the letter and continues to sell drugs and counterfeit US money to this day. So lets turn this around : Lets see someone here say why Hagel was right not to sign the letter.


His reason seems quite simple:

Quote:
"I didn't sign on to certain resolutions and letters because they were counter-productive and didn't solve a problem," Hagel said.


Maybe you disagree that this was counter-productive; maybe you think it actually would solve a problem. Don't hold your breath, though, because whatever he says in his confirmation hearings regarding this issue, it is probably just going to be an amplification on the basic principle mentioned above.

His crime seems to be wanting nuance and caution in approaches to Middle Eastern peace. Maybe in individual cases you can find fault with that, but as a general policy that seems to me to be a good thing, not a bad one.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How could cutting off Hezbollah's ability to raise money in Europe be counterproductive?

Hezbollah taught Al Qaeda how to build bombs. And then there is the little matter of the assassination of Rafic Hariri the Prime Minister of Lebanon .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafic_Hariri
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
How could cutting off Hezbollah's ability to raise money in Europe be counterproductive?


Well, the EU didn't add Hezbollah to it's terror list in response to the letter, so how exactly was sending the letter utile? It antagonized Hezbollah while achieving literally nothing else, right? According to this:

Quote:
The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization";[222] On March 10, 2005, the European Parliament passed a non-binding resolution recognizing "clear evidence" of "terrorist activities by Hezbollah"[223] and urging the EU Council to brand Hezbollah a terrorist organization and EU governments to place Hezbollah on their terrorist blacklists, as the bloc did with the Palestinian Hamas group in 2003.[223] The Council has been reluctant to do this because France and Spain fear that such a move would further damage the prospects for Middle East peace talks.


If the strongest case you've got against this individual is that he didn't sign an ineffectual letter because he agrees with the French and Spanish governments that such steps would hinder Middle Eastern peace talks -- or simply because he knows the Spanish and French feel that way, dooming the effort to failure whether he supported it or not -- well, that's not a very strong case in my estimation.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, the EU didn't add Hezbollah to it's terror list in response to the letter, so how exactly was sending the letter utile? It antagonized Hezbollah while achieving literally nothing else, right? According to this:



Antagonize Hizzbollah? Is that a bad thing ? Peace in our time?


Quote:
The European Union does not list Hezbollah as a "terrorist organization";[222] On March 10, 2005, the European Parliament passed a non-binding resolution recognizing "clear evidence" of "terrorist activities by Hezbollah"[223] and urging the EU Council to brand Hezbollah a terrorist organization and EU governments to place Hezbollah on their terrorist blacklists, as the bloc did with the Palestinian Hamas group in 2003.[223] The Council has been reluctant to do this because France and Spain fear that such a move would further damage the prospects for Middle East peace talks.



Hizbollah is against any peace talks while they do all they do. France and Spain ddn't list Hizbollah cause of their comerical ties to the middle east and because France and Spain each had two leaders who resented and disliked the US. . Nothing to do with mideast peace or peace talks .

Quote:
If the strongest case you've got against this individual is that he didn't sign an ineffectual letter because he agrees with the French and Spanish governments that such steps would hinder Middle Eastern peace talks -- or simply because he knows the Spanish and French feel that way, dooming the effort to failure whether he supported it or not -- well, that's not a very strong case in my estimation.



Fox every consider the fact that maybe you are in the wrong here?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6085768.stm
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:

Fox every consider the fact that maybe you are in the wrong here?


About Chuck Hagel not signing a letter which achieved nothing being a big deal? I am conpletely willing to consider the possibility of being wrong, and am still patiently waiting to hear why this should be of deal-breaking importance to me. Not about how Hezbollah is bad, but how this letter was, based on real-world conditions, in any way an effective implement for the pursuit of Middle Eastern peace, such that I should be outraged about Hagel not signing it.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is mostly the chicken hawks that oppose Hagel. Those who hid when called on but have no problem with sending other young people off to die. Hagel is a twice wounded vet who has quoted Eisenhower about the horrors of war and the senselessessn of war Hagel wants to cut the pork at the pentagon and that is the real issue. AIpac stood down on this so Hagel is going to be nominated. Hagel will take an Axe to the defense budget and the lobbyist who own the Republican party are screaming.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
GENO123 wrote:

Fox every consider the fact that maybe you are in the wrong here?


About Chuck Hagel not signing a letter which achieved nothing being a big deal? I am conpletely willing to consider the possibility of being wrong, and am still patiently waiting to hear why this should be of deal-breaking importance to me. Not about how Hezbollah is bad, but how this letter was, based on real-world conditions, in any way an effective implement for the pursuit of Middle Eastern peace, such that I should be outraged about Hagel not signing it.


Don't pressure Central American drug cartels. It is not good to antagonize them.

I believe secretary of defense be ought to able to see terrorists for what they are and not be worried about antagonizing them. If he refuses to call terrorists terrorists then what kind of secretary of defense is he? Especially when they continue to target US troops after the letter.

I think a guy who can see the Israeli lobby for what they are ought to also be able to see Hizzbollah for what they are.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:

Don't pressure Central American drug cartels. It is not good to antagonize them.


Given the best solution to Central American drug cartels is not battling them or condemning them, but simply ending the war on drugs, are you sure that is the comparison you want to go with?

GENO123 wrote:
I believe secretary of defense be ought to able to see terrorists for what they are and not be worried about antagonizing them. If he refuses to call terrorists terrorists then what kind of secretary of defense is he? Especially when they continue to target US troops after the letter.


I see zero benefit in this letter you are so upset about him not signing. I do not know how I can make myself more clear in that regard. The concerns you have presented so far seem more than trivial to me. Do you have something more damning? Make me scared of Chuck Hagel being appointed.
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