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The war over Hagel is on
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
Fox wrote:
GENO123 wrote:

Fox every consider the fact that maybe you are in the wrong here?


About Chuck Hagel not signing a letter which achieved nothing being a big deal? I am conpletely willing to consider the possibility of being wrong, and am still patiently waiting to hear why this should be of deal-breaking importance to me. Not about how Hezbollah is bad, but how this letter was, based on real-world conditions, in any way an effective implement for the pursuit of Middle Eastern peace, such that I should be outraged about Hagel not signing it.


Don't pressure Central American drug cartels. It is not good to antagonize them.

I believe secretary of defense be ought to able to see terrorists for what they are and not be worried about antagonizing them. If he refuses to call terrorists terrorists then what kind of secretary of defense is he? Especially when they continue to target US troops after the letter.

I think a guy who can see the Israelis lobby for what they are ought to also be able to see Hizzbollah for what they are.


Antagonizing them has done wonders for Israel hasn't it? And speaking of drug cartels, they still seem to be pretty strong after 3 decades of fighting them...

Not saying governments should placate them either, but the lack of succes of government policy on such entities clearly is a sign that more perspectives probably would be helpful.

Is Hagel that guy? I'd say he has clearly demonstrated he is an independent thinker, which is good. On the other hand, his ideas have a mixed record. He wasn't against the iraq war, but he was against the surge, which had some success.

I do think making him DoD Secretary is worth the risk. We have too many people who just play the game and really don't have much to contribute and are poor leaders when they reach those leadership roles. I definitely feel better about him being nominated than an undersecretary that isn't a vet and is just getting bumped up because Obama likes him or her. Or is some long-term politician with a loose connection to the defense world (such as Panetta).

Lastly, big DoD cuts need to happen, and he has the background where he can help make them happen and not receive as much push back as a non-vet would receive.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Given the best solution to Central American drug cartels is not battling them or condemning them, but simply ending the war on drugs, are you sure that is the comparison you want to go with?


Yes . much like leaving Al Qaeda alone won't make them leave us alone.



Serious answer:

I wonder what Hizzbollah would be like were their money from Europe cut off.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:



Serious answer:

I wonder what Hizzbollah would be like were their money from Europe cut off.


They became strong via Iran and Syria. I'm guessing Iraq is now helping too (more proof the invasion of iraq was a dumb, DUMB idea). They are also strongly supported by the Shia in their own country. They get funding through smuggling cigarettes here in the states (well not them directly, their supporters).

I really don't think it would do much in other words. The fall of Assad's regime would be a much bigger blow (assuming some Alawite state isn't created out of the country or they maintain some type of influence or power).
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do not send me private messages, Geno. I gave you your chance to convince me, and you have failed to do so. This conversation is finished.
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GENO123



Joined: 28 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway one has yet said why he was right to NOT to sign the letter. I would like to hear us why not signing the letter is helps the cause of mideast peace. The US ought not set policy cause they are worried about making the drug cartels upset likewise I would hope the secretary of defense would be able to see terrorists for who they are, and not be worried about making them angry. I would want the secretary of defense of defense to know the difference between peace and just "peace in our time".



Quote:

From all indications to date, it is an arrangement that Hezbollah is eager to preserve. The group’s secretary general, Hassan Nasrallah, has said that a European blacklist would have an adverse effect on Hezbollah. It “would dry up the sources of finance,” he said, “end moral, political and material support, stifle voices, whether they are the voices of the resistance or the voices which support the resistance, pressure states which protect the resistance in one way and another, and pressure the Lebanese state, Iran and Iraq, but especially the Lebanese state, in order to classify it as a state which supports terrorism.”


Quote:

Some experts say that security officials on the Continent are resistant to blacklisting the group because they seem to see a tacit détente, where Hezbollah does not stage attacks and European law enforcement officials do not interfere with its fund-raising and organizational work.

“There’s a fear of attracting Hezbollah’s ire and eventually inviting Hezbollah operations in their own countries,” said Bruce Hoffman, a professor of security studies at Georgetown and a terrorism expert.


So that's why.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/world/europe/hezbollah-banned-in-us-operates-in-europes-public-eye.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GENO123 wrote:
Anyway one has yet said why he was right to NOT to sign the letter. I would like to hear us why not signing the letter is helps the cause of mideast peace. The US ought not set policy cause they are worried about making the drug cartels upset likewise I would hope the secretary of defense would be able to see terrorists for who they are, and not be worried about making them angry. I would want the secretary of defense of defense to know the difference between peace and just "peace in our time".



Quote:

From all indications to date, it is an arrangement that Hezbollah is eager to preserve. The group’s secretary general, Hassan Nasrallah, has said that a European blacklist would have an adverse effect on Hezbollah. It “would dry up the sources of finance,” he said, “end moral, political and material support, stifle voices, whether they are the voices of the resistance or the voices which support the resistance, pressure states which protect the resistance in one way and another, and pressure the Lebanese state, Iran and Iraq, but especially the Lebanese state, in order to classify it as a state which supports terrorism.”


Quote:

Some experts say that security officials on the Continent are resistant to blacklisting the group because they seem to see a tacit détente, where Hezbollah does not stage attacks and European law enforcement officials do not interfere with its fund-raising and organizational work.

“There’s a fear of attracting Hezbollah’s ire and eventually inviting Hezbollah operations in their own countries,” said Bruce Hoffman, a professor of security studies at Georgetown and a terrorism expert.


So that's why.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/world/europe/hezbollah-banned-in-us-operates-in-europes-public-eye.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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We get your point. if you don't like our counterarguments, fine. Whatever it is you are looking for, we're clearly not going to give it. Accept it. No reason to beat a dead horse.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: DC area

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Israel Vows to Use Veto Power if Hagel Confirmed as DoD Secretary

Quote:
JERUSALEM—Top-ranking government officials in Jerusalem confirmed Tuesday that Israel would exercise its longstanding, constitutionally granted veto power over American policy if U.S. lawmakers confirmed retired congressman Chuck Hagel as the United States’ next Secretary of Defense. “In light of Mr. Hagel’s worrying remarks on Israeli-Palestinian relations and questionable classification of Israeli interests as ‘the Jewish lobby,’ we consider him a highly inappropriate choice for Defense Secretary who stands far out of line with our national priorities, and therefore we are prepared to swiftly and resolutely use our official veto power over this U.S. action,” said Israeli government spokesperson Mark Regev of the legal maneuver that the small Middle Eastern nation has employed to block U.S. Cabinet nominees, U.S. legislation, U.S. international relations, and U.S. domestic policy over 1,400 times in its 64-year history. “Because congress does not possess the necessary nine-tenths majority to override an Israeli veto, they’ll have no choice but to head back to the drawing board and provide a Defense Secretary whom we find more suitable.” Sources confirmed that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had sent the White House a list of three individuals the Israeli leader considered appropriate to head the American military from which U.S. President Barack Obama could choose.


Well done Onion, well done.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^

I'm glad I read to the end of that before my blood pressure blew my head off and spattered my blood and brains all over the wall.

Yes, well done, Onion. Well done.

**

Quote:
Is Hagel that guy? I'd say he has clearly demonstrated he is an independent thinker, which is good. On the other hand, his ideas have a mixed record. He wasn't against the iraq war, but he was against the surge, which had some success.

I do think making him DoD Secretary is worth the risk.


I agree at this point.

When the liberals went all anti-war during Vietnam and lost the public's trust on defense, we all lost out. Obama has done a lot to restore the public's faith in Democrats and defense. He obviously doesn't think he has gone so far that he could nominate a Democrat for Sec. of Defense, but that is evidently a slower process. Thank you Forever War conservatives!

The Neocon policies in Afghan/Iraq have been so disasterous that I don't know why they are even allowed in the room when discussions of foreign policy take place.

Hagel is a Republican with some on-the-record views on issues that I don't agree with. Well, OK. That's annoying. His views on the substance of the actual job he is being nominated to do are close to mine. The side issues are side issues. Important, but not really the issue at hand.

We're out of Iraq and we're reducing our commitment to Afghanistan this spring. Slower than I'd hoped back in '09, but OK...we're moving in the right direction.

It is quite clear to me that the Right wants permanent war abroad so that domestic spending 'has to' be cut.
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=apSkhUKw4W0
Quote:
US Government Hostage to Israel? | Interview with Mark Bruzonsky


Watch it twice.
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Israel Vows to Use Veto Power if Hagel Confirmed as DoD Secretary

Quote:
JERUSALEM—Top-ranking government officials in Jerusalem confirmed Tuesday that Israel would exercise its longstanding, constitutionally granted veto power over American policy if U.S. lawmakers confirmed retired congressman Chuck Hagel as the United States’ next Secretary of Defense. “In light of Mr. Hagel’s worrying remarks on Israeli-Palestinian relations and questionable classification of Israeli interests as ‘the Jewish lobby,’ we consider him a highly inappropriate choice for Defense Secretary who stands far out of line with our national priorities, and therefore we are prepared to swiftly and resolutely use our official veto power over this U.S. action,” said Israeli government spokesperson Mark Regev of the legal maneuver that the small Middle Eastern nation has employed to block U.S. Cabinet nominees, U.S. legislation, U.S. international relations, and U.S. domestic policy over 1,400 times in its 64-year history. “Because congress does not possess the necessary nine-tenths majority to override an Israeli veto, they’ll have no choice but to head back to the drawing board and provide a Defense Secretary whom we find more suitable.” Sources confirmed that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had sent the White House a list of three individuals the Israeli leader considered appropriate to head the American military from which U.S. President Barack Obama could choose.


Well done Onion, well done.


Well done indeed. Laughing
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catman



Joined: 18 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Former Secretary of State Colin Powell is onside with the nomination and took shots at the Republican Party and some Republicans.

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell said on NBC’s Meet the Press Sunday that President Barack Obama’s nominee to be defense secretary, former Sen. Chuck Hagel, was “superbly qualified” and would be a strong advocate for Americans in uniform.

“This is a guy who would be very careful about putting their lives at risk because he put his life at risk,” Powell told NBC’s David Gregory.
...
“He knows what war is and he will fight a war if it’s necessary, but he’s a guy who will do it with great deliberation and care,” Powell said.
...
(Powell also) delivered a prolonged criticism of the Republican Party, rebuking the hawks in the party. “They’ve lost two elections. The American people have made it clear that they are not particularly interested in finding new conflicts to get into.”

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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The anti-Hagel blitz continues, with a simulacrum of a gay lobby-group in the forefront...

Quote:
The most mysterious of the new groups is Use Your Mandate. Portraying itself as a gay rights group, it has sent mailers to voters in seven states — including New York, New Jersey, Maryland and Montana — and run television ads against Mr. Hagel in New York and Washington. It has sent out posts on Twitter questioning his gay rights record and asking, “Is this what we worked so hard for?” Established gay rights activists have expressed skepticism about the group’s authenticity.

It has no Web site and it only lists as its address a post office box in New York. But paperwork filed with the Federal Communications Commission link it back to Tusk Strategies, a bipartisan political group founded by Bradley Tusk, a former strategist for Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg of New York.

In an interview, Mr. Tusk would only identify its financiers as Democratic “gay and L.G.B.T. people who have been active in campaigns around the country.”

Yet federal records show that Use Your Mandate uses Del Cielo Media, an arm of one of the most prominent Republican ad-buying firms in the country, Smart Media, with clients that have included the presidential campaigns of former Gov. Jon M. Huntsman Jr. of Utah and Senator John McCain of Arizona; the 2010 Senate campaign of Christine O’Donnell, who was known for positions against homosexuality, in Delaware; and, as it happens, the Emergency Committee for Israel.



link
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sirius black



Joined: 04 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hagel is more than qualitfied for a start. Obama is doing things differently this time around. More independent thinkers or a more left of center policy on things.
He is nominating a non Wall Street insider for the first time ever for the head of the SEC. A woman who was a prosecutor of Wall Street malfeasence. Never in its history as the SEC had a prosecutor.
As far as the war on drugs. America has a huge apetite for illicit drugs. As long as the demand is there, drugs will also be a problem. We also need to start looking at drug addiction as a meical/health issue instead of a criminal issue.
The prison industry is partially built on drug users and small time/street corner dealers.
America is a huge, rich nation. It doesn't matter what it is, legal or otherwise, if enough Americans want something we will get it. Collectively we have the money and the means. In this case drugs is what is wanted and because of the amount of people who use and dea it, there is simply too much money in it for people who make it outside of the country to ignore. Throw in Europe, and a few other places as well and its obvious you're not going to end the making and transporting of it. The demand is too high. Any first semester econ class student will tell you that its a market economy and the demand is simply too high to stop anyone.

The solution could possibly be to legalize some things, treat addiction as a medical/health issue and not a criminal issue. instead of jailing some folks, force not only drug counseling but allow someone who is caught with recreational use to keep their jobs and not go to jail. Ankle bracelets, partial house arrest where they have to be home at certain times and allow them to keep their job instead of jail where instead of being a tax paying citizen they are now going to be chronically jobless after jail when they get a record. Allow the house arrest person a chance to expunge their record with a clean urine test and counseling. Maybe pie in the sky but present methods aren't working.

As far as the middle east. They have always fought each other when left alone. Remove ourselves economically and militarily from the region and they will go back to bickering with each other. The middle east, similar to Africa and Native Americans in America are made up of tribes. Many view themselves as part of their tribal connections and not their national identities or at least its seen as secondary. The nations in the middle east, just like in Africa, are in many cases arbitrary lines of the European powers.

Al Qaida got started due to Russian invasion. bin Laden went after America in the '90s primarily because American bases were on holy lands. The pattern here is obvious.

With regards to Israel, I believe in the nationhood of it but I don't believe in bullying either. They have overstepped and unfortunately due to the influence of the lobby domestically, the money from some and the importance of Florida in national elections, not much hope of things changing domestically. Europe is still guilt ridden from WW2 and won't take a tough stand.

If a united front is shown to Isreal not to expand settlements and make a deal that both sides can accept, then nothing will ever happen. A good deal of the problem isn't Hezbullah, its us in the west.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirius black wrote:
Hagel is more than qualitfied for a start. Obama is doing things differently this time around. More independent thinkers or a more left of center policy on things.
He is nominating a non Wall Street insider for the first time ever for the head of the SEC. A woman who was a prosecutor of Wall Street malfeasence. Never in its history as the SEC had a prosecutor.


Obama's SEC pick was quite reassuring. But his Treasury pick was more of the same. Unfortunately, Treasury Secretary is far more influential than the head of the SEC.

I pretty much agree with you on the war on drugs, although Obama's stance doesn't yet show the effect of any independent thinkers in the mix (maybe he'll "evolve").
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Titus



Joined: 19 May 2012

PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just learned that the Executive Director of Christians United for Israel isn't a Christian.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070415224702/http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerGuest.jhtml?itemNo=713233

Quote:
As for your second question, well done. Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak is my cousin. He changed his last name from "Brog" to "Barak" during his time in the army. Given Barak's illustrious career in the Israeli army and government, this is a relation of which I'm very proud.


..

A while back one of the crazy Israel supporters went on NPR and called Hagel an antisemite. A good amount of NPR listeners were enraged.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ombudsman/2013/01/27/170398305/allowing-hagel-to-be-called-anti-semitic-on-npr

It's heartening to see this linguistic terrorism wearing thin.

...

If I were from the Israel lobby I'd be pulling this stuff back now. Hagel is a normal, middle of the road American yet has balls to stand up to the bullying. I don't think he hated Jews coming into this. He might now have a different opinion. Rather than doubling down with more BS from the absurdly named Emergency Committee for Israel etc and pissing him and people like him off it'd probably be good strategy to accept defeat and walk away.
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