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Piers Morgan confronts guy who wants to deport him (VIDEO)
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blockhead confidence wrote:
visitorq wrote:
Okay then, knives it is.


Good, so back to your original point:

visitorq wrote:
Imagine trying to emigrate to Britain as an American (working as some 5th rate TV host) and "calling for" an end to knives. I doubt many people there would be impressed.


I can see the Stars and Stripes burning in the streets.

Anyway, the UK has a problem with massacres of innocents by knives? Like, stabbings of people by the mentally unhinged?

Sure, here's one: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9796940

There have been mass stabbings in China and Japan too. Should I go there and start preaching to people that knives should be banned?

Quote:
Quote:
Not all "killing" is unjust.


I belive you compared carrying guns to having a monarchy. One of the two is meant to bring about the best in a people (bullsh*t, but still what is believed).

I see zero relevance here whatsoever. Carrying guns obviously has a high level of utility for people who want to defend themselves.

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Quote:
Conjecture.


No hypotheticals. Got it.

You said Switzerland would "probably" ban guns if they had mass shootings there. That's not a hypothetical, that's an assertion (based on conjecture).
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuel to the fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9efqhGBHZI

I like AJ for his passion (and IMO Piers Morgan is a total puke who should be immediately deported on the next flight to somewhere/anywhere), but Jones went overboard and I was disappointed because the "ammo" so-to-speak was readily available. It was funny in a visceral way to see someone scream at the NWO jerk, but the message delivered unfortunately I suspect did too little to advance the cause of convincing the serfs that we must at-all-costs maintain our Constitutional principles.

Ben Swann likely would have done a better job of keeping an even-keel and have been more effective at refuting PM's cherry-picking and agenda-driven BS.
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Blockhead confidence



Joined: 02 Apr 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
Sure, here's one: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9796940
There have been mass stabbings in China and Japan too. Should I go there and start preaching to people that knives should be banned?


Some tiny island near France? Meanwhile the US seems to have one a month.

Knives don't work (well) at a distance of about more than a meter
Knives need more than just aiming and pulling a trigger
Knives have separate utility
Knives rarely result in fatalities (as everyone know from China)

All this amounts to a difference of kind not just degree.

And don't forget you compared the feelings you have for guns to those people have towards monarchs. That was a good one.

Quote:
I see zero relevance here whatsoever. Carrying guns obviously has a high level of utility for people who want to defend themselves.


And this unwarranted fear (because just about every other western country doesn't have it) is killing innocents.

Quote:
You said Switzerland would "probably" ban guns if they had mass shootings there. That's not a hypothetical, that's an assertion (based on conjecture).


In any case, since Switzerland lack one of the two sufficient conditions (1. have guns 2. have massacres) to warrant banning gus, it's an irrelevant comparison.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
... but it unfortunately did little in my estimation to advance the cause of convincing the (global?) sheeple of the importance of maintaining our Constitutional principles.


"Global?"
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
caniff wrote:
... but it unfortunately did little in my estimation to advance the cause of convincing the (global?) sheeple of the importance of maintaining our Constitutional principles.


"Global?"


You're quick like a fox - look above and I removed that. I was wondering about the market this controversy is being sold to. Domestic consumption only?

(Stream-of-consciousness late-night typing is my only way when I visit this site, so I'm wide open to this kind of critique when I try to re-re-reclarify my points. Such is life.)
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blockhead confidence wrote:
visitorq wrote:
Sure, here's one: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9796940
There have been mass stabbings in China and Japan too. Should I go there and start preaching to people that knives should be banned?


Some tiny island near France? Meanwhile the US seems to have one a month.

You asked, and I provided.

Quote:
Knives don't work (well) at a distance of about more than a meter
Knives need more than just aiming and pulling a trigger
Knives have separate utility
Knives rarely result in fatalities (as everyone know from China)

All this amounts to a difference of kind not just degree.

Actually no, it only a difference of degree. Beyond that the exact same principles apply (and to be sure, I'm most certainly not for banning or restricting either guns or knives).

Quote:
And don't forget you compared the feelings you have for guns to those people have towards monarchs. That was a good one.

It was rather arbitrary, but if you want to harp on then yeah, it actually is a fairly relevant comparison. Some ignorant authoritarian scumbag from Britain comes over and starts bad mouthing the 2nd Amendment (something most Americans respect) would be fairly similar to an American going over and bad mouthing the monarchy (although in that case I suppose I would see it as more justified, since I find the concept of monarchy morally repugnant, but then you don't see me preaching about it on a talk show in London).

Quote:
And this unwarranted fear (because just about every other western country doesn't have it) is killing innocents.

No, my fear (which is obviously warranted) is not killing anyone. Criminals and the government are killing innocents. The solution is not therefore to take guns away from innocents. The collective does not get punished for the acts of individuals.

Quote:
In any case, since Switzerland lack one of the two sufficient conditions (1. have guns 2. have massacres) to warrant banning gus, it's an irrelevant comparison.

Huh? The fact that they have guns and not massacres pretty much proves that gun ownership doesn't cause crime. If you suddenly started having mass shootings, there would obviously be another cause at work (like the War on Drugs in the US). You're assuming the Swiss would automatically jump to a false conclusion based on logical fallacies and ban guns as a result.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought Alex Jones "won" in an entertainment sense in that he just I think his whole goal was to make Piers Morgan into someone you should just have no respect for and be comfortable ridiculing.

Kinda reminds me of Fred Phelps. Utter craziness and jibberishness but entertaining and just has complete and utter contempt for the empty suit that is the show's host.

But yeah, Jesse Ventura actually made sensible points.
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
Fuel to the fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9efqhGBHZI

I like AJ for his passion (and IMO Piers Morgan is a total puke who should be immediately deported on the next flight to somewhere/anywhere), but Jones went overboard and I was disappointed because the "ammo" so-to-speak was readily available. It was funny in a visceral way to see someone scream at the NWO jerk, but the message delivered unfortunately I suspect did too little to advance the cause of convincing the serfs that we must at-all-costs maintain our Constitutional principles.

Ben Swann likely would have done a better job of keeping an even-keel and have been more effective at refuting PM's cherry-picking and agenda-driven BS.


Alex Jones makes a fortune promulgating conspiracy theories about pretty much everything under the sun. Watch the video at the bottom of the page I linked to. His life is in danger because of that interview? Right... Rolling Eyes
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12ax7



Joined: 07 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steelrails wrote:
...Jesse Ventura actually made sensible points.


Piers Morgan made the most sensible point during that interview: Jesse Ventura was making facile arguments (and I love how Ventura went silent, clearly stumped by the comment because he didn't understand what it meant).
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

12ax7 wrote:
Piers Morgan made the most sensible point during that interview

Only to you. It's called preaching to the choir. To the rest of us Piers Morgan is smug, insufferable foreigner who is actively subverting the constitution of the country he has fled to (because apparently his beloved British Isles isn't good enough for him, so he had to come to the US to try and make us all more like the UK... i.e. the crime capital of Europe).
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Blockhead confidence



Joined: 02 Apr 2008

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
You asked, and I provided.


You could massacre with all kinds of weapons and things, of course. But one weapon stands out head and shoulders above the rest for efficacy.

For every massacre by knife you can find, I can provide twenty by gun, no doubt hugely more lethal in terms of numbers. It's a difference in kind.

Quote:
Actually no, it only a difference of degree. Beyond that the exact same principles apply (and to be sure, I'm most certainly not for banning or restricting either guns or knives).


Beyond that? These are crucial differences.

In fact, drop all those things that make knives distinct from guns bar one: a gun's sole purpose is killing.

If there are kinds of knives only able to be used for killing too, ban them as well.

Quote:

It was rather arbitrary, but if you want to harp on then yeah, it actually is a fairly relevant comparison. Some ignorant authoritarian scumbag from Britain comes over and starts bad mouthing the 2nd Amendment (something most Americans respect) would be fairly similar to an American going over and bad mouthing the monarchy (although in that case I suppose I would see it as more justified, since I find the concept of monarchy morally repugnant, but then you don't see me preaching about it on a talk show in London).


That's a grand way of putting it, but it still comes down to: you think telling Americans not to have guns (things with one purpose, to kill) is the same as telling Brits not to have a monarchy.

Quote:
No, my fear (which is obviously warranted) is not killing anyone. Criminals and the government are killing innocents. The solution is not therefore to take guns away from innocents. The collective does not get punished for the acts of individuals.


Denying someone a tool that kills and only kills is punishment? How is this not obviously bizarre (wanted to pick much less polite word here)?

Quote:
Huh? The fact that they have guns and not massacres pretty much proves that gun ownership doesn't cause crime. If you suddenly started having mass shootings, there would obviously be another cause at work (like the War on Drugs in the US). You're assuming the Swiss would automatically jump to a false conclusion based on logical fallacies and ban guns as a result.


A story.

Country X's people have these things that can kill and have no other use besides. Country X starts having massacres in which these killing things are used. The massacres happen with terrible regularity and predictability.

What, besides guns, can you put in place of "things"?
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jkrishnamurtidotorg



Joined: 04 Oct 2012

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: A Discrepancy Reply with quote

My comment is in regards to the notion portrayed by some people "in" the pro-gun lobby think that owning a few guns is going to somehow defend themselves against the tyranny of any modern potential governmental military threat.

Is it not laughable to anyone else that someone believes that guns, in nearly any civilian form, will somehow defend against any foreign or domestic military, when governments today pursue far more lethal weaponry and technology? It is being said that drones will soon find their way into the skies over the US (if they haven't already)(not necessarily to be assaulting or spying on all americans), and you think your community gun presence is going to make a drastic stand to any modern military?

Alex Jones references past governments in history who wanted to take away firearms from common people if they had any. The difference between these historical references and today are the grand discrepancies between how military technology has "advanced".

Seriously?
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CentralCali



Joined: 17 May 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
There have been mass stabbings in China and Japan too. Should I go there and start preaching to people that knives should be banned?


Maybe not. Someone might shoot you with a home-made shotgun! Shocked Evidently, someone's figured a way around the gun ban.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You could massacre with all kinds of weapons and things, of course. But one weapon stands out head and shoulders above the rest for efficacy. For every massacre by knife you can find, I can provide twenty by gun, no doubt hugely more lethal in terms of numbers. It's a difference in kind.


As to the knives argument- If you add in arson, bombings, gassings, and other such acts, the number or horrific incidents becomes much closer.

There's a reason 9/11 wasn't 19 guys with AKs (Or the now In Vogue AR-15) but was instead planes turned into guided missiles. It's because the 19 guys with AKs might not cause as many deaths.

The reason nutjobs turn to guns instead of bombs is lack of expertise and materials. Not lack of desire. Channel that desire away from guns and towards bombs or chemicals and well...you might fund yourself wishing for the latest school shooting instead of the latest school bombing.


Quote:
If there are kinds of knives only able to be used for killing too, ban them as well.


So archery equipment should be banned as well? Spears? (used in fishing)


Quote:
you think telling Americans not to have guns (things with one purpose, to kill) is the same as telling Brits not to have a monarchy.


England's monarchy has been responsible for far more death and global havoc than America's gun crime. Heck, you could take America's gun crime deaths for the country's entire existence (250 years), combine them, and that would be a slow 30 years for the British Empire from 1500-1950.

Quote:
Denying someone a tool that kills and only kills is punishment?


It is if in so being denied that killing tool, that they are killed by someone else who illegally acquired that killing tool or is using a different killing tool.

What odds do you think a 105 lb. woman has against a murder-rapist with a knife if she is carrying a knife or mace.

What odds do you think she has if she is carrying a gun?

Remember, one things guns do is they equalize a fight between people of vastly different physical strength.

Quote:
Country X's people have these things that can kill and have no other use besides. Country X starts having massacres in which these killing things are used. The massacres happen with terrible regularity and predictability.

What, besides guns, can you put in place of "things"?


First off, I object to your inclusion of the "no other uses besides on multiple grounds- First your argument becomes overly simplistic. Secondly, guns do have other value besides killing- Deterrence, hunting, self-defense (the object of self-defense is not to kill, it is to get someone to stop attacking you), law enforcement, government independence.

s for things which in my view fit your criteria-
Communist Governments (China, USSR). Military Dictatorships (Nazi Germany). Imperialistic Democracies (The United States, UK, France). Imperialistic Monarchies (UK, German Empire) Warlords. Juntas. Large Standing Armies. Swords. Spears. Bows. Machettes (See Rwanda). Explosives (Middle East), Toxic Chemicals (21st Century Planet Earth).
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fezmond



Joined: 27 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

caniff wrote:
IMO Piers Morgan is a total puke who should be immediately deported on the next flight to somewhere/anywhere


We don't want him back.
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